Rick Sharga: The quality of loans in 2020 has no comparison whatsoever to the quality of loans we saw in 2005, '06, '07, and '08 leading into the Great Recession. Historically, about one percent of loans go into foreclosure in any given year. Right before the pandemic hit, we were actually running at about a half a percent, so we were running 50 percent below normal historical levels of foreclosure activity, which to me is an indication of a very high loan quality. That again, is one of the aspects of the Dodd-Frank legislation. At the peak of the foreclosure crisis back in 2010, 2011, we had about four percent of borrowers who were in foreclosure. It was a nightmare in terms of the sheer numbers and the size of the problem. Dodd-Frank really wasn't set up to anticipate the global pandemic. It had an impact on making sure that when one hit, the lending industry, the loan market, if you will, was very, very healthy. The other thing that'll be interesting to see, as we come out of the pandemic, is all the regulations that were put in place after the Great Recession to try and give borrowers the opportunity to work out something before foreclosure will kick in. [MUSIC]
Deidre Woollard: You are listening to the Millionacres Podcast. Our mission at Millionacres is to educate and empower investors to make great decisions and achieve real estate investing success. We provide regular content and perspective for everyone from those just starting out to seasoned pros with decades of experience. At Millionacres, we work every day to help you demystify real estate investing and build real wealth. [MUSIC]
Hello. I'm Deidre Woollard, Editor of Millionacres, and this is the Millionacres Podcast. Today, we're talking about something that's been on my mind a lot lately, which is the possibility of a rise in foreclosures. Right now foreclosures are still low in this country. There've been a variety of government interventions to keep people in their homes, but a lot of people say they are postponing the inevitable. I feel it's a complicated situation, one with both positives and negatives for real estate investors. It's impossible to predict the future of the housing market. I don't have a crystal ball, but I believe that looking at the data gives us a window into potential trends. So that's why I'm here today with Rick Sharga, who recently rejoined the RealtyTrac, which some of you have probably heard of; it's a foreclosure search and listings portal. Rick has had a long career in real estate and mortgage industries. He's seen these cycles before, so I'm excited to really talk about the numbers and get a little more clarity on what's happening now and more importantly, what could happen in the future. Welcome, Rick.
Rick Sharga: Thanks, Deidre, it's very nice to be here.
Deidre Woollard: You've come back to RealtyTrac at an interesting time, so what are you seeing in terms of the potential for new foreclosure cycle and how might this one be different?
Rick Sharga: It's a great question, Deidre, and you're right, it's not a coincidence that I came back to RealtyTrac when I did. The company's owners believe there will be an increase in default activity over the next couple of years. It seemed like a good time to re-launch a brand that's known for participating in the foreclosure market. Having said that, I don't believe we're looking at a huge wave of foreclosure activity that's going to hit us eminently. As people that have been in the mortgage industry for a long time will tell you, "It's much better to work with the borrower and try and avoid a default than it is to work with the borrower once they've defaulted on a loan and trying to remedy the situation." What's really encouraging in this cycle compared to the last cycle, compared to what we saw in the Great Recession is the government stepped in to try and intervene and create this forbearance program, the moratoria they put in place that are intended to give that borrower enough time to get back on his or her feet, and the economy enough time to recover so that there are jobs available and we can keep people from losing their home before closure. What's also been gratifying is see the industry work hand-in-hand with the government to put these programs in place so quickly and execute them so well that we're keeping, literally, millions and millions of people from losing their homes unnecessarily.
Deidre Woollard: Well, I think that's a really interesting point because we've got two sets of government programs. Because you've got all of the programs that came into place after 2008, you've got Dodd-Frank and things like that, and I feel like maybe this is the first big test of programs like that.
Rick Sharga: In a way, it's actually a validation of what Dodd-Frank was intended to do from a lending perspective. The quality of loans in 2020 has no comparison whatsoever to the quality of loans we saw in 2005, '06, '07, and '08 leading into the Great Recession. Historically, about one percent of loans go into foreclosure in any given year. Right before the pandemic hit, we were actually running at about a half a percent, so we were running 50 percent below normal historical levels of foreclosure activity, which to me is an indication of a very high loan quality and that, again, is one of the aspects of the Dodd-Frank legislation. At the peak of the foreclosure crisis back in 2010, 2011, we had about four percent of borrowers who were in foreclosure. It was a nightmare in terms of the sheer numbers and the size of the problem. Dodd-Frank really wasn't set up to anticipate a global pandemic. It had an impact on making sure that when one hit the lending industry, the loan market, if you will, was very, very healthy. The other thing that'll be interesting to see, as we come out of the pandemic, is all the regulations that were put in place after the Great Recession to try and give borrowers the opportunity to work out something before a foreclosure will kick in. So even if we do start to see an increase in foreclosure activity, it probably won't be anytime real soon. In fact, the regulations put in place would lead me to believe that you might not start to see any increase in foreclosure activity until maybe mid 2021 or later.
Deidre Woollard: Wow, that's really interesting, too. Because there's been some criticism of forbearance, you've mentioned it a little bit before and whether or not is it postponing the inevitable or is it giving people that chance to catch their breath for the economy to pick back up, for jobs to pick back up, and so I think that's one of the things that we don't know right now.
Rick Sharga: Well, we don't know exactly how it's going to end because we haven't seen this particular movie before. But here's what I can tell you, the loans in forbearance are actually performing better than you would expect. There was an economist on the East Coast, I won't give him any credit to mention his name, but he was predicting that 25-30 percent of borrowers would wind up in this forbearance program. My back-of-the-envelope math tells me that would have cost the mortgage servicing industry about $90 billion over the six months. It would have just essentially bankrupt the system, making it impossible for anybody to get a loan. That never happened. We peaked at about eight percent of borrowers in the forbearance program. A survey from Lending Tree suggested that about 70 percent of those borrowers didn't really need to be in forbearance but they'd opted in more or less to hedge their bets just in case their financial situation worsened because of COVID-19. We've actually seen 25 percent of the people in the forbearance program continue to make their monthly mortgage payments. Think about that. About a million people in the forbearance program who don't have to make a mortgage payment have continued to make one every month since they entered the program. That tells me that the people in forbearance aren't necessarily in the dire straits that the raw numbers would suggest they are. Two other little tips that's for you; one is that the number of borrowers in the program peaked in the first month. At the end of March, we saw a huge spike, a lot of people opted in. I would submit to you that if the situation we're continuing to get worse, we would've seen a similar spike at the end of April, the end of May, the end of June, the end of July, the end of August when the next month's mortgage payments were coming due. Instead, what we've actually seen is every week, fewer and fewer people in the program and that's continued consistently since the end of March till today. The other thing to point out is that as people leave the program, and they are living the program, less than 10 percent of them are going delinquent on their loans. So if that holds, it really does give us a reason to be optimistic that the borrowers exiting the program will revert back to being performing borrowers, making their payments on time as they move forward.
Deidre Woollard: I find that really intriguing. Do you think that people were just getting into forbearance as a precautionary measure or just because they panicked and thought, "Okay, I don't know what's going to happen so I should do this?"
Rick Sharga: Let's be candid here. Let's be realistic. There are probably a large number of people in forbearance who really did need forbearance. They lost their jobs or their income was diminished. I do believe there are a lot of people in the program who did it as a safeguard because they really weren't sure what was going to happen. If they could get into a program that would give them this kind of protection, why wouldn't they take advantage of it even if they didn't necessarily need it? Then, honestly, there are probably people in the program who knew they weren't going to need it but thought, "Hey, this is a great way for me to solve away the cash I would normally be spending on my mortgage and use it for something else," whether it's to pay down debt, or build up their cash reserves, or invest elsewhere. There are always some people that will take advantage of a program when they have the opportunity to do so. This program was purposely set up to make it easy for people to get into because time was of the essence. You didn't have to go through this rigorous screening process to qualify for the program; you had to raise your hand and tell your lender that your income was being affected by COVID-19 and that's all you needed to do to qualify. There's always some people that will avail themselves of those kind of financial opportunities when they can. Let's put it that way and leave it at that.
Deidre Woollard: Do you think that because of the current low rates for mortgages, that some people may have opted to refinance instead of going into forbearance and maybe lower their payments that way?
Rick Sharga: That's an interesting question, Deidre. One of the things I think some borrowers miscalculated was that they'd be able to refi out of the forbearance program. In fact, a lot of lenders are very reluctant to do a refi loan to somebody who's asked for forbearance because they're not sure what their financial situation really is. People are leaving the program and it takes them a month or two to get their finances back on track so that lenders will offer them that. What I am seeing is a surprisingly large number of people exiting the program are paying off their loans. Either they're terming out, they're selling their property, and there's a huge market demand for housing right now so selling a house is a great option, and then there are some that are refinancing as well. Those low interest rates are making it a very attractive option, a good way for people to lower their monthly mortgage payments and also to a certain extent, driving that demand for home sales.
Deidre Woollard: Obviously, there's not a lot of foreclosures out there, but I did see that third quarter report from ATTOM Data about zombie foreclosures and the reason that we might be concerned about those. Can you explain for people a little bit about what a zombie foreclosure is and why we need to keep an eye on that?
Rick Sharga: It's funny that we came up with the term zombie foreclosures when I was at RealtyTrac the last time. I'm surprised that terminology has lasted as long as it had. We're coming up on Halloween and so we may as well dust it back up. A zombie foreclosure is a property that's in some stage of foreclosure but has not yet been auctioned off and sold to an investor or has not yet been repossessed by the bank. The process has gone on long enough that the borrower has abandoned the property. Now, we have this property that the borrower is no longer maintaining, they've abandoned it, it's vacant, but the lender can't take possession of the property because the foreclosure hasn't been finalized yet. This really came about because of some well-intended legislation in states like New York and Florida, that extended the foreclosure process in an effort to protect the borrower and give the borrower more leeway in terms of how long they had to try and remedy the situation. But unfortunately, it's extended the program so long. In New York, for example, it can take up to three years to do a foreclosure, which means you could have somebody living there rent-free for 36 months. We've seen borrowers just leave because they're done, they want to move onto the next stage of their lives and the courts have not allowed the lenders to repossess the properties until you go through the full cycle. One of the unintended consequences of the current government moratoria on foreclosures and evictions is that there were properties that were already in foreclosure when the pandemic hit that are now in limbo, they basically are frozen in place, but it's been six months since these moratoria were put in place. Imagine a property that's been in the foreclosure process for a year already. Now, you tack on six months of this limbo period and borrowers are leaving. What we're finding is more and more of these foreclosure properties are going vacant. That makes them certainly a contributor in neighborhood blight. Vacant properties are always a safety hazard for the neighborhood. I would submit to you that in time of a global pandemic, they've become even more of a safety hazard just because of the health concerns that you have, that you wouldn't have during a normal cycle. It's not a huge problem; there aren't millions and millions of these properties, but in certain places, New York, Florida, some parts of Illinois, you do see a number of these and its situation that really does need to be cleared up.
Deidre Woollard: I remember during the last foreclosure crisis, there were different cities that were working on boarding up the ones that were vacant and things like that or maintaining the grounds and that was obviously a concern because just one house in this situation can have a huge impact on a neighborhood and property values.
Rick Sharga: Normally, we'd see municipality step in but state and local governments right now are in dire need of revenues. Because of the recession that's been brought on by the pandemic and the subsequent government shutdowns, tax revenues have fallen into a gully, so municipal governments really don't have the cash to go out and take care of these properties. It's not as high a priority as you might think in normal times. This probably couldn't be happening at a worse time in terms of local government's ability to take care of the problem.
Deidre Woollard: That's true, and one of the things that I've been watching a little bit is property tax [inaudible 00:16:08] and some municipalities have pushed back the dates or given people a little more leeway in paying property taxes due to COVID-19.
Rick Sharga: Yeah, that's happening. Real estate is a big part of the revenues from most municipal governments, it funds school systems. It will be really interesting to see how this all plays out between now and when we can put COVID-19 behind us, but I think from a budgetary standpoint, it's going to be a while until people recover.
Deidre Woollard: Exactly. I wanted to pivot a little bit and talk about the opportunities for real estate investors. Obviously right now, we're in this really crazy real estate market. That has to think everyone a little bit baffled because we've got this huge demand. Inventory is just so low. Prices have been going up in a lot of markets. At first, people were thinking it was pent-up demand and now it just seems to be something else that's going forward at its own right. Do you think foreclosures are going to equalize that market? You said earlier that it's going to be a long wait, so is there no hope in sight?
Rick Sharga: It's so weird to have us talking about no hope in sight during the hottest housing market in 100 years, right? That's not a bad thing. I understand your point from an investment perspective though. There are really two things driving current demand and then there's some accelerators. One is these low interest rates you talked about. We had another all-time low yesterday on 30-year mortgage rates. The notion of having a 30-year fixed rate mortgage at two and a half percent, for some of us who have been around for a while, that's mind-boggling. My first mortgage actually had two digits in front of the decimal. Yes, I go back that far. I think I invented mortgage. The other thing that's driving demand is millennials. We've been talking about them forever. I was one of the few contrarians who said that millennials actually were going to buy houses at some point. I've been saying that for years. They're doing it later. The prime age for first-time homebuyer today is about 35 years old, which is probably five or six years older than what it's been historically. There's a huge cohort of millennials that are in the 32-34 year old age bracket, and moving quickly towards that first homebuying age. That's the other thing, so demographics and low interest rates are what's driving demand. The pandemic in an odd way has actually accelerated millennial homebuying. What we had already been seeing is movement from urban renter to suburb homeowner. The pandemic has really accelerated that dramatically in major urban markets. Apparently, being quarantined in a 700-square-foot apartment with a toddler wasn't as much fun as everybody expected it to be. These millennial families are moving not just in the suburbs, but in the far suburbs, almost in the rural areas because now they're not worried about a commute back into work in the city because they're going to be able to work from home in large numbers. They're also looking for a larger property because they want a home office that they can use. They want space between them and their neighbors that are not in this population density model that's been so problematic for cities during a pandemic. We're seeing a lot of that activity and the builders are responding to that and starting to build in suburbs and far suburbs. There will be more delinquencies, there will be more defaults, there will be more foreclosures over the next couple of years. Let's just do a make-believe timeline. The government forbearance programs give you up to six months with an option of another six months. So conceivably, a borrower can be in forbearance until next March. Theoretically, they probably won't be in large numbers, but it could be next March. When you exit the forbearance program, your loan basically goes from being really, really delinquent to current automatically. They take the missed payments and plug them into the end of your loan, so you're now current. If you are a borrower who is in forbearance, you're now current and you lost your job and haven't gotten a new one, it's going to be 3-4 months before you actually get your default notice of missed payments, so that's summer of 2021 when you go into default. In most states, it's going to take at least a year to go through the whole foreclosure cycle, so somewhere between summer 2021 and summer 2022 is where you're going to have probably most of the properties that are in distress enter the foreclosure cycle and exit the foreclosure cycle. Here's the opportunity for investors and here is why it was an interesting time to relaunch RealtyTrac. Prior to the Great Recession, the normal way for a distressed homeowner to get out was to sell a property prior to the foreclosure sale. You have a borrower who gets initial notice of default. They'll have anywhere from 90 days to six months, depending on the state before the foreclosure auction is scheduled. That gives them a lot of time to try and sell a property. In the Great Recession, that didn't happen because the market was overbuilt, there was too much inventory, and because of that, prices were falling so people didn't have any equity. Today's market, there's a record level of equity, six and a half trillion dollars of equity. According to the numbers at ATTOM Data, 70 percent of homeowners have more than 20 percent equity. What I do believe will happen is, instead of a lot of foreclosure auctions, what you'll see is a lot of distressed property sales in the early stages of the foreclosure cycle. It's those borrowers who are in what we call RealtyTrac pre-foreclosure who will have the opportunity to sell their home, make some money on the sale because the market is so hot right now and pay off their debt to the bank. It's not ideal because they still have to sell their house, but it's much, much better than losing the house to foreclosure. Again, in most of these cases, they'll be able to put money in their pocket as they execute that sale. One of the things that, again, that made sense for us to relaunch RealtyTrac at this time was we have all of those early stage notices in our database. For investors, for real estate agents who are looking to work with those distressed borrowers, we're one of the sources people can go to define those early stage foreclosures and pursue those investment opportunities, or pursue those listings that they happened to be an agent.
Deidre Woollard: Interesting. You're thinking these won't be short sales partially because of the increase in home values, that there'll be sales where the sellers are still able to make money and pay back their mortgages?
Rick Sharga: Yeah, again, lenders are extremely reluctant to do short sale because they're basically long.
Deidre Woollard: They're long.
Rick Sharga: Yeah. If you're in a market where prices are going up five percent every year and your borrower already has 10, 15, 20 percent equity, there's no logical reason to ever do a short sale. If you're the homeowner, you're the borrower, if you can make money on the sale, you'd be foolish to try and do a short sale. It will destroy your credit and you're walking away from whatever money you could pocket in the transaction. Again, reality is, across the country, there is less than four months of supply of homes. In a normal equilibrium stage of the housing market, there's about six months. If you're in some markets in California, Austin, the Pacific Northwest, you're looking at it less than a month supply of housing stock. Again, I think you will see some of those properties come to market from distressed sellers, but I don't think you're going to see as many of them go all the way through the foreclosure process as some people were expecting.
Deidre Woollard: That's really interesting, the idea that we might be able to cut it off at the pass. I think another thing that I'm thinking about too is what happened during the last cycle with institutional buyers. So build-to-rent is huge and single-family rentals are huge. I feel like single-family rentals are perhaps much more desirable right now with COVID-19 and people being concerned about living with a bunch of people in an apartment building. For investors, do you feel they've only got a half to get ahead of those institutional buyers, and that getting-in in that earlier stage is a way to basically to compete?
Rick Sharga: Yes. I do think that for investors, the single-family rental market provide some really interesting opportunities. What's equally interesting is those tenants are continuing to make their rental payments at a higher rate than what we're seeing in multi-family rental units. It's in mid 90 percent range in terms of on-time monthly payments for single-family rental properties, which is significantly higher than you're seeing in the multi-family apartment buildings. I have heard anecdotally that some of the institutional buyers are revving up their engines again; they've been relatively quiet up to the last couple of years. Looking at market opportunities, to me that's a sign that individual investors, smaller investors should be looking at same thing. The old cliche that "follow the money" actually does apply here. There are a lot of properties that will be outside of the institutional investors' buybacks. They have a lot of money and they're putting together funds to buy distressed properties, but they don't buy every property. For example, I know some of them will not touch a property with swimming pool, they'll have a cutoff in terms of the year built. They'll be looking for the properties with a certain number of beds and baths in square feet. The properties that fall outside of those boxes represent really good opportunities for individual investors in the local market. The other thing that is probably worth considering is you can find out who's doing the buying for institutional investors in your market. You can get into the wholesale business. You can go tie up a property that meets the buying criteria for that institutional investor and make, basically, a finder's fee. I know that there are wholesale and investors out there who are making $5-10,000 a deal. While that may not be as much as you get on a fix and-flip, if you do it in volume, it can be pretty good money since you're not putting anything out to do with the acquisition of the repair cost. I worked with a fix-and-flip guy in Southern California who was doing about 10-12 flips a year, but did 100 wholesales last year instead at 10,000 flip. So there are opportunities to do that if you know who the big buyers are in your market, know what they're looking for. You have usually better access more quickly to those local deals. If you can package them up properly, that can be pretty lucrative investment strategy as well.
Deidre Woollard: I really like that idea. We haven't talked a lot about wholesaling on Millionacres and partly, I feel like some of that is because it can feel risky for people, and obviously it requires a lot more knowledge, I think, than people kind of give it credit for because they think of it as just like finding something and selling it, but actually, there's so much legwork involved in it.
Rick Sharga: You need to be careful with your contract. You need to be working with somebody who knows how to execute those contracts. The gentlemen I was talking about a few minutes ago has a contract that basically allows him to tie up the property, but doesn't make him liable for the acquisition of the property in case the deal pulls through. As a wholesaler, that's the protection you want in those deals so you don't suddenly find yourself on the hook for a half-a-million-dollar property that you didn't anticipate buying.
Deidre Woollard: Absolutely. We talked a little bit about the urban exodus and millennials moving out to suburb. So one of the things I'm curious about with the foreclosures is, are they going to be in the spots where people are actually going to need them? Another thing that we've been talking about too, and I know The New York Times has done stories on this, is the silver tsunami of the baby boomers selling their houses at the same time, maybe at a different time than millennials are looking, but maybe not in the same markets. Are you feeling there's going to be a synergy here or there'll be houses where people may not want to be?
Rick Sharga: Deidre, if I had the answer to that, I'd probably have my book published and be out during the tours today, wearing a face mask and social distancing appropriately. It's hard to say. Look, here's the reality in terms of what's going on in the market. This is a weird recession because of how it started and what's caused the fallout. In a normal market, you see some economic underpinnings fall off and you have some fundamental weaknesses and then you have job losses across the board. You have part time jobs, full-time jobs, blue collar, white collar and the Great Recession is very much like that. In this case, there's a handful of industries that really got hit hard: travel, tourism, hospitality, entertainment, retail, restaurants. They tend to be populated mostly by younger workers, by less-educated workers, and by lower-wage workers and because of that, most of the workers tend to be renters rather than home owners. One of the reasons we haven't seen as much of a falloff in housing, as you might have expected with 22 million jobs being lost, is that a lot of those jobs are renter jobs. We're seeing a couple of trends going on because of that. We have just now exceeded the prior high in terms of young adults moving home with their parents. Now, over 52 percent of adults under 25 have moved back home, probably due to economic situations. But those jobs that has been lost have not been across the board and so it's hard to predict exactly where homes will go into foreclosure because of that. The economy went down as quickly as it did because the government basically shut everything down. In our economy, 70 percent of our GDP is based on consumer spending. So if you shut down everything that consumers could spend money on, your economy is going to go down really quickly and all those jobs came with it. It would seem like anybody who was a homeowner in those industries would probably be more likely to be urban or near suburbs than they would be at near suburbs. Whether there will be foreclosure activity in the far suburbs, the rural adjacent areas, it seems less likely, but we'll have to let this play out and see what actually happens. Where we could start to see a little bit of foreclosure creep into the suburbs is the businesses that weren't affected by the first wave but are now being affected because of the economic fallout that hit all those renters. You're seeing the airlines announced huge layoffs of personnel, and this is now affecting pilots who actually make pretty good money and other full-time personnel. It's not the second wave of COVID necessarily, but it's second wave of the recession. We could start to see some of those professionals now find themselves in financial distress and their properties may wind up coming to market. I'm less concerned about the boomers exiting in some mass exodus. I love those stories, they come out periodically. First, all the boomers are going to downsize at the same time, so they're going to be a shortage of those kind of houses and "Oh, what are we going to do?" Now, all the boomers are going to leave and what are we going to do with these big mansions if nobody wants to buy? It's like the real world rarely works out the way that it's reported to happen in The New York Times. I guess that's for better or for worse, but we'll be keeping an eye on it. I don't think the silver tsunami is going to leave a million vacant properties across the country that nobody wants to buy.
Deidre Woollard: I would agree with that. Certainly the trend, I think the other impact of COVID-19 is going to be that people are going to be less likely to move into senior living or anything like that unless they absolutely have to. One thing we've already seen is that people are becoming more likely to move their parents in with them rather than sending them to some place like that, or moving in with their parents instead of having them sell their house. That's another factor.
Rick Sharga: One of the reasons that stocks like Home Depot and Lowe's has done so well over the last few years is that, boomers are opting to age in place. Rather than just sell the house they've lived in for the last 20 years, they are working on the house to make it more livable as they age. You've seen a lot of investment in that and the trends you talked about, parents moving in with their kids, the kids moving in with their parents is also happening. You're seeing more multi-generational families or households across country. Those two things have happened quite a bit. I think there's another investment opportunity though. I do believe we'll see probably some innovative approach tools to senior living as time goes by. I think that the notion of the nursing home right now is probably toxic; I don't think anybody wants to touch that. But assisted-living communities, senior facilities with more robust healthcare facilities nearby or integrated into the program, I do think you'll see different types of options come to market as the population ages and as a huge percentage of the population ages. It used to be a nursing home or live with your kids. I think just because of the nature of the boomer generation, the amount of money that the generation still has, the fact that they age a little bit more healthily than prior generations, I think they're going to be looking for different options. If I were looking at a market segment that might be a good investment opportunity going forward, different types of senior-living facilities might be one I would take a look at.
Deidre Woollard: That makes a lot of sense. One of the things that we're watching as a trend too is that generational wealth transfer and how that's going to impact real estate investing in general. I want to wrap up with the question I would like to ask people is, you're one tip for real estate investors over the next couple of years?
Rick Sharga: Well, that's a great question. I guess I'd say don't believe the hype. The real estate market always operates in cycles. The people that make the most drastically, scary predictions are always the ones that get the most print. I tend to take those headlines with a large dose of salt. Keep a long-term perspective on what you're doing. Typically, if that's you're playing real estate, you're going to come out of okay.
Deidre Woollard: [MUSIC] Thank you. This was great. I really appreciate your time.
Rick Sharga: Love to do it again Deidre, thank you for having me.
Deidre Woollard: Thank you. [MUSIC] Thank you for tuning into The Millionacres Podcast. I hope you like today's show. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to your favorite podcast provider. If you have a moment, we'd love to hear from you. Please visit millionacrespodcasts.fool.com and tell us what you think of the podcast so far, what kind of content and guest you'd like to hear, and what else we can do to help you go smarter, happier, and richer through real estate. Stay well and stay invested. [MUSIC] People on this program may have an interest in the deals, offerings, or services they discuss and Millionacres or the Motley Fool may have a formal recommendation for or against. Always consult a certified tax professional before acting on tax advice and do not buy or sell assets based solely on what you hear.