Deidre Woollard: Hello. I'm Deidre Woollard, an editor at Millionacres. Thank you so much for tuning into the Millionacres podcast. If you've hung out with me on a podcast before, you probably noticed I'm a little excited about modular construction and the things that it can bring, although I think my excitement may be doesn't always come with a lot of knowledge, so I'm bringing in some expertise today. I'm chatting with Nima Wedlake of Thomvest Ventures. Nima's a principal at Thomvest, focusing on investment opportunities all across real estate and financial technology. He currently serves as board observer at LoanSnap singular, and wholesale. He's an expert on fintech and real estate, and has this just awesome sense of what's happening in the startup market where all of this innovation is happening, so welcome. I've been thinking about this podcast for a couple of weeks. One of the things I think modular construction is so important is we've got a construction waste problem in the world. How does modular help with that?
Nima Wedlake: Yeah, definitely. There are many problems around real estate development right now that modular can help solve, including the waste problem. It's a particularly interesting moment in time for modular. I think we are in a bit of a housing crisis around pricing. For the last decade plus since the great financial crisis, we've seen this steady increase in pricing of homes, particularly as rates have gone down in the last 18 months. It's making it more difficult for folks to purchase their home or purchase their first home in particular, and I think that's creating a swell of demand for new takes on home development and home building. It's compounded by the fact that the price of materials has skyrocketed in the last year, lumber in particular. In the same way during the post-war period where modular building and construction techniques really were popularized, there was a swell in demand, supply shortages, also unused factories that could be re-tooled to help with the building, I think we're in a similar moment in time now where there's this nice confluence of both demands on the buyer side, and then also this recognition that there needs to be innovation around the process by which we build homes. Modular has several benefits that I think solved some, obviously not all of the problems that I articulated.
Deidre Woollard: I think that's one of the things that's fascinating is because you're absolutely right. There was that post-war modular boom, and then it disappeared. It's really odd that it fell out of favor. Now, you're right, lumber prices are up 200 percent over April last year. The lumber memes on Twitter are hilarious. But we've really got this situation where we have to figure it out, otherwise there's not going to be housing affordability at the level that we need.
Nima Wedlake: Yeah. I think part of the wane in popularity of modular housing a few decades ago was due in part to the fact that, there was a lot of rigidity associated with the prior approach. Obviously, it was a very different period in terms of adoption of technology and software. I think we have the benefit now of all those things that help us adopt processes around modularization, breaking down the home building process into a set of components that don't need to occur on site. But we can also leverage software to allow for a degree of customization around the end product, which is I think the sweet spot for consumers. They'd love to benefit from the efficiencies associated with modular building approach but also want a home that doesn't feel cookie cutter, that feels unique and tailored to their needs, that's considered to be a high-quality build. I think we're in a nice moment where we can achieve all of those things.
Deidre Woollard: It's true. I think one of the things that I'm watching, perhaps you're watching this too, is that there's so much venture capital money right now. Obviously, you're in the business. You're seeing all of that. It hasn't quite slowed so far to modular in terms of big companies going public yet, although there's been talk, I think for three years about Katerra going public. What are you seeing as far as that? Do you think there's going to be a big modular company that goes public?
Nima Wedlake: Definitely. Everyday, we meet with really interesting companies at the early stage that I could see being large, successful public companies in a few years. In particular, I think there's this renewed interest on the venture capital side around this field. There are a lot of smart people working on the problem now. I think all the more macro level trends that I articulated earlier are also creating interests on the venture side. I think we're also seeing some of those early companies get to scale, get to nice revenue, grow quickly. That's also attracting a variety of entrepreneurs to this really interesting field.
Deidre Woollard: Yeah, absolutely. I know it's not just with modular, it's not just building the projects themselves, there's also that aspect of managing things. Construction tech I think is having a bit of a moment right now, partly because a lot of people learned during the pandemic that you can manage some of this stuff remotely, and you can make decisions where you don't have to be on site. Is that another aspect that you and your team are looking at?
Nima Wedlake: Absolutely, yeah. I think you nailed it. Historically, construction whether it's modular or a more traditional process, there are so many individual parties involved in the process. In building an apartment, often over 200 people involved, 30 plus entities associated with the process from start to finish. It's a massive coordination problem. That makes it challenging for any one company to really affect change the way we'd hoped they could as we invest in startups. I think that's starting to change. There's this growing recognition. I think COVID definitely helped, but a growing recognition that if everyone is using a common set of tools and common communication platform, you can solve some of the coordination issues that have beleaguered construction for so long and inhibited from enjoying some of the productivity gains, that even you and I have enjoyed in our respective fields. I think COVID definitely taught people out of necessity how to use things like FaceTime for doing inspections like how to move from paper documentation to more digital forms of documentation. I think what's happened is everyone has realized, this is a better way to do things and I think it will stick in a real way post-COVID.
Deidre Woollard: Yeah. I think that's fascinating because I think when you think about the construction process, especially on the commercial side, one of the things that's interesting is that the individual teams don't necessarily collaborate in the same things. You don't have your plumbers and your electricians. They'll be looking at plans, but they may not necessarily be communicating on the same platform, which makes no sense and has always baffled me a little bit. I feel like we're getting closer to teams realizing that. We're starting to see different technology. What do you think about digital twins, and how they can play a role in that?
Nima Wedlake: Yeah. I think that's a super interesting development that we're tracking closely. I think a few companies that I have come across that are thinking about digital twins in smart ways, one on the apartment development side, the low-rise side, and then another on the single-family home side. The first on the apartment side company called Juneau, they're taking them a modular approach to construction. What they've done is by creating a digital twin, they can find parties for every aspect of the construction process and then describe to them in an effective way what to build, how to build it, and then coordinate on logistics as well. Then on the single-family home side, Mosaic, a really interesting model where they are effectively software-enabled or tech-enabled general contractor, they work with the large home builders who are developing hundreds of single-family homes on a single attractive land. By combining the coordination software with the typical roles that a GC plays around hiring different trade workers, they're able to not only bring software to the development process, but also mandate its utilization. We really like those models where you take on the roles and responsibilities associated with the actual development, and then use that to make sure that the software is being utilized effectively.
Deidre Woollard: Interesting. That makes me think a little bit also about some of the companies that are going public via SPAC back lately. We've got Latch that's going public. We've got Matterport going public via SPAC. SmartRent was announced recently. What are you thinking about the SPAC craze? I keep hearing, it's dying off and then another one gets announced. How does that factor in to your business since you're on the VC side?
Nima Wedlake: Yes, I think SPACs have been a fascinating development. There are pros and cons to it for sure, but I think in real estate in particular, there are hundreds of really fascinating private companies that are building within real estate and getting to interesting revenue scale. I think Opendoor, if I recall correctly, was one of the first real estate focused SPACs to go public. As you mentioned, SmartRent, and Latch, and others have had filed more recently. Real estate in particular is an interesting category for SPACs because oftentimes you see these companies with real meaningful revenue, maybe not profitability just yet, but Opendoor has gone to quite impressive guidance. They purchased something like 19,000 homes last year and building nationwide presence. SmartRent, very large business at this point. What I see SPAC is doing is giving investors of all shapes access to these interesting companies. When SPACs fall short in my opinion is that they're almost putting the cart before the horse. There are some companies that have zero or de minimis revenue and are going public and maybe they're trading on the hopes and dreams of future growth, I think four or five years out, and I think that's when we get into potentially dangerous territory. Whereas on the real estate side, these are all real businesses that are in most cases north of $100 million in revenue annually and a path to growth and ultimately profitability. So I'm encouraged by what's happening on the real estate side with the SPAC phenomenon.
Deidre Woollard: I love the distinction you made there because there is that factor that worries me with other SPACs out outside of our space, where I feel like sometimes it starts to remind me of previous dot-com boom and bust cycles where people are investing based on a really great PowerPoint, and that always makes me nervous.
Nima Wedlake: Same here. [laughs]
Deidre Woollard: Yeah, of course. I know that Thomvest keeps this map of all of the PropTech companies, we'll link to it in the show notes, but can you tell me a little bit about how that came about and how you maintain it?
Nima Wedlake: Sure thing, yeah. Our firm takes a very vertical-specific approach to investing. The idea is, hey, as a group, let's get smart on a specific category. Let's build a network in that category and let's meet with great entrepreneurs building within that category, and hopefully, we can leverage some of the work we've done to build expertise, to do a better job picking the winners in those given categories and then helping them become winners. Historically, financial technology, fintech, was a large, important vertical for us, and about two years ago, we had a discussion internally around potential new verticals that we should enter. There's a lot of overlap between fintech and real estate, particularly all the work happening on the mortgage side of the real estate sector, and so it was a nice natural transition for us to move into real estate from an investing standpoint. In order to get smart, we put together this market map. I think it's a good piece of marketing material, but for us as we were creating it, it was a fantastic way to learn about all the innovation happening within every segment of real estate. For your listeners, there are two maps actually. One is focused on commercial real estate, the other's focused on residential real estate. Across the entire value chain associated with each, we've outlined the most interesting startups that are operating within the residential real estate agents life-cycle, within mortgage, within property management, etc. I think each map has over 200 logos on it. So I think it speaks to how much is happening and how many entrepreneurs are focused on this category.
Deidre Woollard: Yeah, absolutely. You've got a hand in residential, you've got a hand in commercial, what do you think of the pace of innovation in the two sectors? Because I feel like it's a little bit different sometimes, I'd love to know your take.
Nima Wedlake: Yeah. Residential's interesting, because they're over six million home purchases annually, and on average, homeowner refinances their property every seven years. While the aggregate number of transactions is high, the repeatability of those transactions is relatively low. When I decide to buy a house, maybe I'll look for a mortgage and I'll remember the Rocket commercial that I saw during the Super Bowl and go to Rocket and hope that they give me a good rate. I think it's taken longer for residential to get to scale because of that dynamic. It's hard to acquire users at scale. Some of the benefits around technology adoption then become less clear because so much of the cost associated with the business is around marketing and customer acquisition. I think commercial real estate is where we saw a lot of innovation earlier because oftentimes, software vendors sell into large owners of office real estate in a given geography. It's more of a traditional SaaS sale. Like if you look at SmartRent, which just announced its intention to go public via SPAC, they sell a tenant amenity experience into some of the largest operators of multi-family real estate in the US. So it's a recurring business. There's kind of this one-to-many dynamic between the startup and their potential customers, and so I think you've seen a lot of attention and innovation in that space. But for us, we're really excited about residential. We think there's so much room to improve the transaction experience. For the first time in a while, consumers are not going to their bank first for a loan, but going to the Internet first, and that creates more of an open opportunity for startups to get their attention.
Deidre Woollard: Yeah, it's true. I think for the publicly traded companies, what I'm seeing is everyone is trying to get to that what I call nose-to-tail experience from the mortgage to all the way to closing because traditionally there wasn't a platform for that. Your appraiser, and your inspector, and your mortgage, everything was always separate, and anyone who's bought a house knows it's a giant paper chase from hell traditionally. It's getting better. Still, not getting any faster, mostly, but I feel like there is potential for that. Obviously, the biggest publicly traded companies are working on it, but they're also all of these small players as well. So is that part of what you're tracking?
Nima Wedlake: Yeah, absolutely. Like we discussed on the construction side of things, I would say less of hairy problem than what we see in construction, but definitely the process of buying a home is a multiparty process. There's the agents on both the buyer side and the seller side. There's the loan officer, there's the title company. There's, further down the chain, the moving company thinking about how you furnish your place, how you do renovation on your place if needed. It's this massive coordination problem and we love businesses that are trying to obstruct a way some of the complexity associated with that. One of our first investments on the mortgage tech side was a company called Blend. Blend sells software into financial institutions that allows them to deliver a great digital experience for their borrowers who are applying for mortgages. They started at the front of the process where they collect your personal information, your bank statements, your income, data, details around the property that you'd like to purchase and they power that experience on behalf of banks. Now they're in a really interesting position to offer the full suite of products and services associated with buying your home in addition to the mortgage. Blend recently announced that they acquired a title company from Mr. Cooper. They have an embedded home insurance agency that allows you to, in one-click, get a home insurance policy as you're going through the mortgage application workflow. In many cases, if you don't have a real estate agent yet they'll connect you with one and they will even connect you with moving companies to help you on the day of your move. They have this really ambitious goal of creating a seamless home purchase experience and they're well on their way to doing so.
Deidre Woollard: They just announced that they're going public, right?
Nima Wedlake: They did. They filed confidentially with the SEC. So I think it will be another great win for the real estate tech community.
Deidre Woollard: For you on the VC side when you're investing in companies, are you looking for companies that have the potential to go public, or you were imagining that maybe they'll be private? How does that factor into how you invest?
Nima Wedlake: Yeah, we definitely think about what happens 5, 6, 7 years down the road. Does this business have the potential to be a large, growing public company? But I would also say that we're open to companies that have a potentially different or longer journey ahead of them. One of the benefits of working in venture capital is that you don't need to generate a return tomorrow. It's accepted that companies may take many years to fully realize their vision, and I think that's particularly true in real estate where there are so many parts of the process, there are so many established ways of doing things and sometimes it takes real time and effort to change such a large but stubborn industry.
Deidre Woollard: I'm back with Nima Wedlake of Thomvest Ventures and we're diving into the future of real estate. What aspect we haven't talked about yet is real estate crowdfunding. I'm currently working on a book on real estate crowdfunding. I feel like, we're at the very beginning of what it can do. I always liken it to REITs in the 1960s. I know that Thomvest invested in PeerStreet and I want to know your thoughts on real estate crowdfunding in general.
Nima Wedlake: Yeah, it's a fascinating category. I'm glad you're writing a book on it. I'll be eagerly awaiting reading that one. As you mentioned, we're investors in PeerStreet. PeerStreet gives investors access to real estate debt. They're focused on what they described as the bridge loan or fixing flip loan segment of the market where real estate investors are borrowing capital for a short period of time to fund renovation on a property before they list it for sale. It's a fantastic loan product because it's backed by the underlying real estate. The duration of the loan is relatively short, typically less than a year, and then the interest rate is higher than what you'd see for a 30-year conforming loans so it's in the high single-digits typically. They've done a fantastic job unlocking that asset class for retail investors. What we see so many other takes on marketplaces that are exposing the real estate asset class to everyday investors. I think that's an important thing to do because the homeownership rate has been fairly stubborn and I believe the low 60 percent rate. It's getting harder and harder every day to purchase a home for yourself, let alone as an investment property. We see this full spectrum of options that are being made available to investors. Whether that be buy a property outright on a platform like Roofstock, where they'll guide you through the buying process and typically they'll point you towards investment properties in lower-cost market. You don't need $100,000 just to make a down payment. All the way through to folks that are taking an asset, slicing it into individual tranches, and then securitizing that asset and making it available to retail investors. You can actually get exposure to the equity associated with a property. We really like what's happening in the category. I think we're actively looking for other businesses that are tapping into crowdfunding markets and we think that over time this will be a great way for individual investors to get exposure to the investment properties without having to do all the work associated with buying a portfolio of investment properties.
Deidre Woollard: Yeah, I love that too. One of the things I really like is that I think a lot of people are realizing now that investing in real estate doesn't necessarily have to start with, "I have a down payment and I buy a house." Maybe that's actually real estate. Your house isn't necessarily a great real estate investment. It's where you live, that's different. I wanted to talk a little bit about your writing on medium. I've seen some of it. You have some opinions on iBuyers. I've got some opinions on iBuyers. You mentioned open door earlier. What are you thinking about iBuying right now in this crazy real estate market?
Nima Wedlake: Yeah. No. It's interesting. I think iBuying was an open door from the beginning. It was a business that fascinated me, We've talked about some of the complexity associated with buying a home or selling a home and Opendoor came up with a clever way to abstract away all of that complexity just by buying a property outright with an all-cash offer and managing everything else associated with with the process. I think that's one way to do it. It's a very heavy "way to do it." They needed to raise a lot of capital. There's these massive operations components to buying that much real estate at the scale that they're purchasing at. Then I also think that those businesses are subject to changes in the macro conditions in the market. I think if you look at Opendoor's business between 2019-2020, their revenue dropped by north of 40 percent, and that was just a function of COVID. Now we're in a housing market where that's swung the other way, where things are so hot that you really have to wonder as a perspective home seller, does it make sense to sell my property at a discount to this intermediary that is Opendoor? Or do I list my home on the open market and see if I can sell the property at a premium to where comps are coming in at. I think there's the sweet spot in which the Opendoor model really works. But I think right now, we're in a bit of a frenetic environment and I think the value prop of all buyers, including Opendoor's, probably less strong than it was historically.
Deidre Woollard: Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting too because you've got Redfin is in this space, Zillow is in this space, Offerpad is going public soon and yet the profitability isn't there yet. No one's gotten to that place where iBuying as profitable. It's a question. Also, we haven't really gone through a full downmarket with iBuying. We went through whatever that was last March and April where everybody stopped iBuying. But that wasn't like a real downmarket, that was just a weird thing. Do you think it's possible for iBuying to be profitable? What do you think it's going to take for that to happen?
Nima Wedlake: Yes, I do. I touch on this a little bit in the blog posts. I think if we fast forward three or four years, Zillow is building its iBuying muscle as is Redfin. I think simultaneously Opendoor is building its muscle as more than an iBuyer. They've stood up a mortgage team. They have a brokerage business now, they have the title company in-house as well. I think the path to profitability is not in the core iBuying business, I would say, more generic real estate or home buying and selling platform, whichever flavor you want to take on. If you want to sell your home at a discount to Opendoor directly, you can. If you want to get connected with an Opendoor employed agents to sell your property, and more of a market price, you can. If you're looking to buy a new property and you need a mortgage, you can get that through Opendoor. I think they've built this great national presence, but now the path to profitability is in layering on additional products and services beyond iBuying. We're seeing the same thing with Zillow too. They've captured the eyeballs through the portal product and now they're layering on mortgage iBuying. They're getting more sophisticated around how they connect buyers to realtors and capturing the value associated with that. They have a title business and then they're also going deeper onto the renter side as well. I think that's what you'll see, it's a one-stop-shop. It's about acquiring customers as high up in the funnel as possible. That's ultimately why I think Zillow has a structural advantage in this space.
Deidre Woollard: The traffic cannot be denied as a core advantage with Zillow. Let's also talk about Compass and that IPO because I find Compass and some of the other newer brokerages in the space really interesting because maybe you disagree, I don't know. This divide between what is considered a tech-enabled real estate brokerage versus a traditional real estate brokerage. I'm seeing there's a difference in valuation. Are you noticing that?
Nima Wedlake: Yeah, definitely. Oftentimes a public company valuations are impacted by the growth rate of the underlying business it's being valued. I think in the Compass case, where you see this delta between where Compass has been valued at relative to where some of their competitors like RE Ledger, RE/MAX are being valued at. I think that's a byproduct of growth rate more than anything else. There are definitely concerns that were shared by public market investors around the profitability or lack thereof of Compass, the amount of capital that they've had to deploy in order to acquire agents and just grow the core business. I think the big test for them will be, can they continue retaining and growing their base of principal agents without utilizing these expensive acquisitions. These arguably expensive acquisitions that they've taken on to bring those folks into the fold. I think the jury is still out on that. You saw the offering price revised downwards in the days leading up to the public offering and my hunch is that that was a byproduct of that unknown around agent acquisition.
Deidre Woollard: Not just agent acquisition, also tech acquisition. They just acquired Glide, which is the part of what eases the transaction they acquired Contactually. They've acquired a bunch of different companies, a bunch of different tech and they've also acquired a bunch of individual agents and individual brokerages. My concern about Compass as an investor is, how are they going to be able to put all of these disparate pieces together because they are buying cultures in the case of the real estate brokerages. They're buying a bunch of real estate platforms and services that need to talk to each other. What do you think about that challenge and that method of growing a business by acquisition versus internal development.
Nima Wedlake: Yeah, actually Glide was a Thomvest portfolio company.
Deidre Woollard: Really?
Nima Wedlake: We're very happy to see them working with Compass.
Deidre Woollard: Can you explain for us more about what Glide does?
Nima Wedlake: Yeah, Glide is really interesting business. They have a suite of products that allow agents, particularly their representing sellers, prepare their properties for listing. In California in particular, there are many disclosures that need to be completed before listing a property, Glide has turned that from what was previously a paper-based process to one that's done completely digitally and about a third of homes in California use Glide for their disclosures. Then they've also built a great platform where agents can submit offers on properties. Instead of, again, filling out a PDF with offer details, you can submit off and then emailing it to the agent on the other side of the transaction. You can submit the offers electronically using Glide and then a seller's agent can review the set of offers where these days it's 10 plus for every property and do so on a single pane of glass and then coordinate or communicate with agents that rise to the top of the offer stack. Yeah, back to your question on Compass. I think from acquiring technology, you can make it work around buying disparate products and integrating them together. I think the war for engineering talent is so strong these days that I think large public companies use their balance sheet and use their corp dev team as almost an extension of their recruiting team. It's a great way to bring talented people into the fold. As long as there's a strong culture around post-acquisition integration, I think you can make it work at scale. I believe that will be the case with Glide. I will say too, I think there are questions around the Compass agent acquisition strategy. But I've heard nothing but great feedback from agents who are on Compass around the actual technology platform that they use. It's more qualitative in nature but I remember attending an Inman conference a few years ago and the one panel or session at the conference that had the most buzz and interest and had people pushing their way in was when Compass was demoing their platform. I think that was a byproduct of just the niche in amongst agents that everything I do is done digitally these days. I need better tooling to manage client relationships, manage relationships with my brokerage, prepare homes for listing, market those homes and Compass at least aspires to provide that platform for them.
Deidre Woollard: I think it's interesting too, because Compass they bought Contactually which a friend of mine was part of that. Then you talked about like RE/MAX earlier they bought Booj, another company that has the CRM program. You see a lot of these real estate brokerages seeing what some of the startups are doing and trying to either acquire or learn how to build and houses just a lot of activity around that.
Nima Wedlake: Definitely.
Deidre Woollard: I want to ask you as a VC, what do you look for in a real estate company? How are you separating out the ones with the really great PowerPoint that we talked about before versus something that's really investable.
Nima Wedlake: That's the hardest part of the job, I wish I could invest in every company I meet with. Typically, we look for a few characteristics. One is a company that's pursuing a really large market opportunities. One heuristic we use to evaluate companies is have they articulated a clear path to reaching $100 million in annual revenue and also growing post that. Is there a big company that need to be built here? That's question number 1. Question number 2 is, is this the team that will take the business to that level. Typically how we make that evaluation is we try to get an understanding of their backgrounds. Sometimes when you meet with folks and you get a sense of how they articulate their division and the plan associated with achieving that vision. I think that can be quite helpful in making that determination. Then we look at the competitive landscape often, we want to get a sense of, are there 15 other companies doing the exact same thing which tend to make things more difficult. Both whether that be customer acquisition, whether that be hiring talented folks, whether that be finding a buyer eventually or going public. I think we like markets where there's some structural advantage that the company we're looking at has. It makes it easier for them to execute on that core vision.
Deidre Woollard: Great, thank you. I want to ask about the whole Silicon Valley VC thing. It seems like before the idea was, you had to either be in Silicon Valley or go there in order to attract venture capital doesn't seem to be as much the case anymore, but there's still a lot of investment in Silicon Valley, I don't believe that it's going away. What are you seeing as someone who's closer to that?
Nima Wedlake: I think this is really one of the COVID silver linings is that when flashback to a year ago and we were just kicking off shelter in place. I wondered out loud, can we even invest when we can't physically meet with people? Is that even possible? I think as an industry we quickly migrated to Zoom, as everyone else, but as a means of meeting with companies, meeting with team members across those companies, running a true diligence process all conducted online and digitally. Like I said there's really interesting silver lining because it's opened the aperture of companies we can meet with. In a single day, I can meet with a company and entrepreneur that's based in San Francisco, but then also one that's based in Chicago, and New York, and Mexico City and Toronto. I think that creates an enormous amount of opportunity for entrepreneurs in those respective markets who historically may have felt the need to relocate to the Bay Area. For a lot of people, that's not an easy thing to do just given the crazy cost of living here. I'm super optimistic about the future of entrepreneurship everywhere, not just in the Bay Area. I think most VCs have adapted to this new normal around will invest to anywhere. There are no geographic constraints to who we can meet with and where we can invest.
Deidre Woollard: As someone who lives in the Bay Area, are you planning to leave? A lot of people have started to look elsewhere. What are you feeling?
Nima Wedlake: Yes. I am Bay Area born and raised, so I have roots here that I think will keep me in the Bay Area for the time being. I think our relationship with our office is going to change. For sure. We don't have to recruit people that want to live in San Francisco or call the Bay Area home. Again, just like it comes to investing in companies, I think that's a good thing because it opens the floodgates around finding talented people detached from the location they happened to be in.
Deidre Woollard: I'm fascinated about tokenization and block chain. I think maybe three or four years ago we started to become a thing. We first saw, like the first tokenized properties didn't really go too far between a couple of test cases, now it seems to be back again, bigger. What do you think about it?
Nima Wedlake: We're in a really interesting moment when it comes to crypto tokenization, decentralized finance. There is a tremendous amount of interest in the category and a willingness, I would say to try new models that have a more crypto based approach to them. I would love to find a company that's generating real traction on the real estate side of things. Unfortunately, I haven't found that business yet. I think there are some elements of real estate that make it difficult, just like the physical nature of real estate obviously, and the operational intensity associated with it, make it challenging. We even saw this in fintech. In many ways, the mortgage was the last product to get digitized. That mirrors closely with our investment history. We started investing in online lending in 2010. First investment was LendingClub. That was a simple personal loan that was being originated online. It took another decade until we saw the same trends in real estate and mortgage. I think it'll be a similar journey in decentralized finance and crypto as it pertains to financial services, I think we will see DeFi being this really interesting way to connect borrowers with lenders in a way that is a more direct connection sans intermediaries. I think it will just take time for the same dynamic to occur in real estate. Just because it's a super heterogeneous, operationally intensive asset class that takes time to digitize, unfortunately.
Deidre Woollard: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for your time today. Reminded listeners you can learn more about Thomvest Ventures at thomvest.com. Remember you can always email us at email@example.com to share your thoughts or call our new voice line at 844-625-2201 to be part of the show. Stay well and stay invested.