Deidre Woollard: [MUSIC] All right Fools, I see Mat is there. Hey Mat, how are you?
Mat Ishbia: Great. How you doing?
Deidre Woollard: Great. Good to see you again. Just to remind the fools that is the President and CEO of United Wholesale Mortgage. Tell me about the journey since the day your company went public.
Mat Ishbia: I know it's been a great journey. Being a public company is obviously a little different than being a private company which we were for the first 35 years and my first 18 years here. But it's been very positive. The momentum around our business. We got our best quarter of all time in the second quarter from a production perspective, and this quarter we're expecting to even beat that. We feel really good about what we're doing at the company. We have 9,000 plus people here. We're really just growing our business and focusing on growth and being a public company has helped us really accelerate some of the growth because people understand what Wholesale Lenders do. People understanding what we're doing differently than everyone else and really helping us catapult our investment in technology as well.
Deidre Woollard: Well, you had your earnings call and you made a big splash, we're talking about accepting crypto. I think everyone wants to know about that. You're planning to do that in the third or fourth quarter?
Mat Ishbia: Yeah. We're always a leader in innovation and technology. Crypto is one of the things we've been looking at for a while, and so finally on the earnings call, I felt comfortable telling people that we're making some really good strides there and expecting to take payments. We have about a little less than a million dollars who pay us every single month for their mortgage payments. How do we accept it in crypto, making it easier on some more clients? We're looking at Bitcoin, we're looking at Ethereum and some other things. But we're going to walk before we run, but we're going to hopefully make that happen before this year's over.
Deidre Woollard: It's pretty interesting right now with Bitcoin soaring. Do you think you're going to start with Bitcoin and then you're going to roll out onto other platforms?
Mat Ishbia: That's the plan. We want to make it easy for our clients. What we do at UWM is make the process faster, easier, and cheaper for consumers and so they work with mortgage brokers throughout America and if collecting their payments via crypto and having other alternatives for our clients is helpful, we're going to do it. There's all these things we're looking at. We're looking at different things with technology, with its NFTs. We're looking at a lot of different things to make things easier and better using some of the newest technologies.
Deidre Woollard: Interesting. What are you thinking about NFTs and how that relates to mortgage?
Mat Ishbia: Well, there's a couple of things we're looking at it. I can't really share all the details right now.
Deidre Woollard: Of course.
Mat Ishbia: But we're excited. Once again, NFTs, you have to understand first how it works and the technology. We're looking at things that tie into blockchain, which is a little bit more on the crypto side. But there's a lot of things that we can do that I think we've 1,200 plus technology, they all work here in our office every single day. We are not outsourcing staff. We're focused on innovation and technology. That's why we close loans faster than everyone else in the industry. Goldman, 1,718 days, everyone takes 40 plus days. We've always been a leader, but now as a public company, more eyes are on us, so when I talk about these things, people want to talk about them back, which has been very positive for our clients and for UWM.
Deidre Woollard: Have you had a lot of demand for people wanting to pay in crypto?
Mat Ishbia: We had, I'll say a decent amount of demand before I said it out loud, and now we have a lot of demand now that I've said it aloud. [laughs] There's a lot more people who have reached out and even a lot of our consumers that are asked our clients and said, hey, listen, I heard you work with UWM. Because we're working with independent mortgage brokers who work with many lenders and if they have access to UWM, it gives them a leg up. We've heard that in a very positive way. Once again, we're still examining it, but we feel really good about it. I wouldn't have said it if I didn't feel very confident that we can execute on it before the year's over.
Deidre Woollard: Interesting. That does end up being a selling future for you in that nobody else is doing that yet?
Mat Ishbia: Yeah. Then also, it just really ties up to the story when we went public, and we went through our roadshow, we're a leader, and we're a leader in innovation and technology where we've been a leader for a long time, and it just aligns with what we do, and you'll see this is just one thing. I got some big announcements coming at the end of the September, October, November. Some big things that are coming in the next 60-90 days, technology-focused, and people will follow us, which is good. It advances the whole industry.
Deidre Woollard: Well, we'll definitely have to have you back for some of that. But you just mentioned your campus in Pontiac, Michigan. Last time I talked to you, you were all-in on this campus. Everybody's making different decisions about remote work. What are you feeling right now?
Mat Ishbia: Well, we have all 9,000 people here in our office today as we have for the last 45 days or so. We brought everyone back starting in June, and then 100 percent were back by July. We believe in we're better together. We can obviously do the jobs at our houses. Our technology is great. Everyone can do that. But we are better when we collaborate. Better together. We have obviously some great amenities and investment. We have a 200-acre campus here. Almost two million square feet. We have Starbucks and doctor's office and salon, and basketball coats, and fitness centers, and people love it. People walk in, and they're smiling and enjoying it. They're happy to be back. It's weird when you are at home because you're like, I don't know if I want to go back, and once they came back, everyone's like, I don't know how I did this for so long without being in our office. Our culture is a huge differentiator. You ever out in Michigan, I'd love to show you around.
Deidre Woollard: Did you find any resistance from workers at all or? We've heard some of that in other industries that people have not wanted to go back to the office. Did you find that people were a little bit hesitant?
Mat Ishbia: I would say very slight, but a lot less than you think. The slightness was, I was very clear the whole time. I've not been wishy-washy or like I'm not sure what we're going to do. I said as soon as it's safe 100 percent of our people are coming back. Is not like we're going to start a hybrid model. I've been very clear and so the people that were unsure probably left back in October, November, December, January last year, but we really didn't have any people when we brought people back in June, July, say, I don't want to work here because I have to come back. Maybe there's a couple here and there, but the reality is everyone knew this was coming. We've been very clear with what our expectations are, and that's why they joined our company the first place because our culture is so great. They're not the people that want to sit at home by themselves. That's not really the UWM type people.
Deidre Woollard: Do you have things like daycare, things like that? Do you people with concerns about their kids and all of that that's happening right now?
Mat Ishbia: Yeah. We take care of everything. We don't have a daycare here on campus. We have so many people, but we have partnerships with a lot of daycares locally, but all the amenities you can think of that tie into what people really want and care about, whether it's simple things such as dry-cleaning or more complex things like yoga classes after work, basketball leagues, and different things, we have all this stuff here. It's a campus, it's an environment. The doctors, chiropractors, anything that they need. We have food cots, we have plenty of things for people to eat and do things that they enjoy, so that they make their lives easy. They leave home, they come here, they do their work, they go back home to be with their families.
Deidre Woollard: Love that. On your earnings call, you had this line about when interest rates go up, that's when UWM shines as a company. I think that's very interesting, and obviously, it seems like interest rates are going to go up at some point here. What does that mean for you?
Mat Ishbia: Well, it just means that a lot of mortgage companies look great when rates are really low. Like what we saw at 2020 was a banner year. Everyone's making a lot of money, everyone's successful. You don't have to be that good at mortgage to make money last year. Well, when rates go up, it's going to change the game a little bit. What we saw in the second quarter, what I said in the earnings call, was it was just a glimpse into the future, the Q2. Right before the second quarter started, rates went up from basically 2.8, which are very low, to 2.99, which are still extremely low. What happened was every mortgage company you know out there and you follow I'm sure in public. All were scared. They all did 10-20 percent less business, and UWM, we actually grew 21 percent because we actually do more purchase business. Our business is much more solid, it's less interest-rate sensitive. On the good way, as rates go up, it's less interest rates sensitive. On the bad way, as in rates down, we don't look as good as these other guys. We made $3.5 billion last year, so we did pretty good. But the point is we're not only looking good when rates go down. We are a much more solid company, less cyclical than other mortgage companies, and that's why I said on my earnings call, if you're going to invest in a mortgage company, we're the only mortgage company we win in technology, we have a dividend, we're strong financially and we're growing not only when rates drop, but when rates go up, and most people think as you pointed out, rates will go up in the next three years. Where we'll end up, who knows? But my point on my earnings call was it goes from 2.9-4, you watch out, and you will see what mortgage companies survive and what mortgage companies thrive, and we'll be on the thriving side.
Deidre Woollard: It's definitely going to be interesting in the next couple of years. We just saw yesterday, NARK, came out with their most recent numbers, existing home sales prices up for the 113th month in a row, which is just crazy. You've talked before about Jumbo mortgages and how that's an opportunity for UWM. What exactly does that mean?
Mat Ishbia: Well, just most loans fit in Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, or Ginnie Mae which is where we all do business and we work with them. Jumbo Loans are higher loan sizes and so we roll out our jumbo program March, 17. Really we just got it in before the second quarter. Obviously, we didn't get the full pride but we're doing almost two billion dollars a month of that production. It quickly became 10 percent of our business. You think of it that way overnight. The point about that is it's just a way for our clients, mortgage brokers, to offer products to consumers that they didn't have access to in the same fashion that they could with UWM. We rolled it out, we're doing a lot of business, it has been very successful and we have other products we're going to roll out in the future that we think might not be as big as that one but very solid products as well.
Deidre Woollard: What are you thinking in general about the home sales market right now? It seems like we might be in for a little bit of a slowing, I'm still hesitant to call that. What do you think?
Mat Ishbia: Well, so I think that the appreciation on housing and home sales has been off the charts lately. I don't think it's going to continue at this pace. However, I'm not one of these believers that think, "Oh, there's going to be a dip and the market's going to crash." That's not what's going to happen, that's just people that don't understand the market and mortgage or real estate. I feel good about it, I think that the housing values are going to continue to go up a lot slower, maybe 1-2 percent a year rather than a 10-15 percent we've seen. At the same time, we think purchase inventory which has been a little tight lately, will open up a little bit, especially as a lot of these forbearances and some of the foreclosures thing start to pick up now that the COVID hopefully we're looking at in a rearview mirror a little bit more going forward and you start to see things change where forbearances if I'm not making a mortgage payment, I'm probably not selling my house. If I have to make my mortgage payment, maybe I'll be open to selling and so therefore they'll create more inventory which will then dull the demand or fix the supply-demand issue we have right now in the market.
Deidre Woollard: Well, let's dive into that for a second because there's been a lot of talk about that. We've still got the eviction moratorium on the federal level in place. It's just a mess when it comes to state and local levels. Are you starting to see potential for more foreclosures to add some of these forbearance programs expire?
Mat Ishbia: Yeah, I see it coming. Like you said, there's more parameters. Obviously, we're going to follow the same rules everyone else follows. However, there is an end in sight, there's a light at the end of that tunnel and it's not a negative. It's not like, oh, we want to foreclosure. What we want to do is we want to make sure that the economy it's a positive. When this stuff happens, when there's "Hey, there's accountability. I own a house, I have to make a mortgage payment." That's good for the economy than ever. Where jobs are out, houses are changing hands, there is opportunity. Right now is just a weird situation, no one can prepare for COVID. There's no COVID playbook. and I think the government and everyone did to their best they could. At the same time, now we're starting to see there's some flaws in some of the negative but no one could have predicted it and so we see that the end of this year, beginning of next year, things will open up quite a bit. I actually think it is going to be a positive because the purchase season for at least positive for UWM purchases will go all the way through the year, usually slows down in the winter months. I don't see it slowing down as much.
Deidre Woollard: Yeah, that's something interesting that I've noticed as well, is that even for five years ago, the mortgage, the buying season, it was very clear. April through October, that was when people were interested in buying homes. Now it really seems to be very different. Are you seeing that too? That your business is less cyclical and flattening out more a bit all over the whole year?
Mat Ishbia: Yeah. I think the seasonality is definitely I think of a slow but slow down from a slow perspective. I think there's still there's some seasonality. January, February, March is traditionally a slower time on home purchases because in the northern states, it's just colder and people just in the middle school year, just as last transactions in that time, it picks up as you pointed, April through October. But I think it's less seasonal than it used to be and I think this year will be even more of a flat year than we've seen in the past.
Deidre Woollard: Your clients are mortgage brokers. What are you seeing from those individual officers? Are they worried about the market? Is there a situation with real estate agents where there's maybe too many people getting into the business?
Mat Ishbia: No, I don't see that as the issue. What we really see is mortgage brokers are the best way for someone to get a mortgage. Consumers have to understand you go to a findamortgagebroker.com or you find a local broker which is, if you think a broker is like some of these big companies, they're not, they're small independent shops. First off, you're helping the local companies, second-off these loan officers, they're not as concerned because they have options. The people that we're seeing are more concerned than the ones that are captive. A mortgage broker is just a loan officer that's independent. A loan officer that's captive to one lender and we're seeing a lot more movement on that side because that one lender might not have the products. They might not have the jumbo, they might have the service levels or the technology if they go be independent, they have access to all of us lenders. We're seeing a migration of loan officers to the independent channels. We're not seeing a reversal, essentially a positive for our business and actually for consumers as well, that more consumers went up with mortgage brokers and those mortgage brokers have options and maybe we're not the best option at UWM, maybe another lender is but that's fine. We want to make sure because you want to get the best deal and we are the best option most of the time because that's what we want to be. We're trying to the best company but it's really a positive thing. We're seeing that it's not over flood with loan officers, it's actually really solid right now, we're seeing more joining our space.
Deidre Woollard: Well, I think one of the things that I find really interesting is that when people are ready to buy a house, they do so much shopping for the house and they do very little shopping for the mortgage. You're mostly working with the mortgage brokers but are you also thinking about that education for consumers as well?
Mat Ishbia: Absolutely. That's why one of the benefits of going public, one of the strategy around being public is I'll be more available to talk and educate consumers, commit to educating consumers. They don't know any better. Consumers think that oh you just go to your big bank, your bank. Well, you don't go to your bank. No disrespect to banks, they're great parts of the society but that's not where you get your mortgage. You see some commercial on TV, you don't go to that, you are paying for that commercial. But you want to go to your local mortgage broker and that's why there's a website called findamortgagebroker.com or you call 1800 brokers. You should get a find a local person that actually can shop. Their costs are lower so it's faster, easier, and cheaper. If it's that way because no one wants a mortgage, it's a weird product. If you're a real estate agent, you're selling a profitable lot. They want a house.
Deidre Woollard: Right. Right.
Mat Ishbia: I just have a product that nobody wants. No one wants a mortgage, they want the house. I have to get a mortgage to get the house so you want to get faster, easier, and cheaper and that's what brokers do.
Deidre Woollard: Yeah, there's no excitement that anybody has about getting the mortgage, unfortunately, and I think that's part of why people don't want to do that. They want to start with the search process, they want to fall in love with a living room but really the best thing for them financially is to figure out what they want and what they can afford.
Mat Ishbia: Absolutely. You've got it 100 percent right. That's why you got to go to the broker and they'll find out and then say, "You can afford $350,000. Now let's go fall in love with the house and the living room that you can afford that fits your budget rather than the reverse way and then try to find. Then after you find the house, you're not doing much shopping for the mortgage, you want the house now, you want to do it fast and so that's why we always try to advise people to go to find a broker-first.
Deidre Woollard: Well, let's talk a little bit about your rivalry with Rocket Company and Rocket Mortgages. I love your competitive spirit. It's one of the things that I think makes you fascinating as a CEO. How does that inspire you as being both a competitor against other companies as well as being a leader within your own company?
Mat Ishbia: Yeah. No, obviously, we respect all of our competitors and we know they're doing good things in the market and doing a lot. But we're trying to be the best and we are the best, we just want to and we also the beat people. If you're the best, you have to compete every single day. I'm extremely competitive, I come from a college basketball world where I used to play basketball for Michigan State in Tom Izzo years and years ago and we won a national championship. I know what it's like to be on the best team and same time, what I learned is I got to get a lot of great around me because I'm not that good. So I got a lot of great people around me, making me better and we're competing. We have no question, I'm very clear with who we're trying to be, we are the number two overall mortgage company and it's not on my goal should you be number two in anything in life. We're going to be the best mortgage company, we're the number 1 but we will not sacrifice our principles. They don't love us down at Rocket. They're about 20 miles, we're 20 miles from them. They don't love us, we don't love them and it's not unknown. People are very well aware of if that we don't really care for one another, at the same time, we think we're doing what's best for consumers. We feel better about our business, what's best for consumers is our business. Therefore, we feel like that momentum, that snowball effect will help us win in the long term.
Deidre Woollard: People have said you're playing hardball, do you feel like that's fair?
Mat Ishbia: Not hardball, we're playing ball, we're playing a game, we're competing and the game is this, help more consumers, give them a faster, easier, cheaper mortgage, and if you do that, you're going to win the game. That's what we're doing in rocket to give them credit. They're really good refinances. They're good at marketing but they charge more than we charge and most lenders charge. They charge more to the consumers and they do a lot of loans. On refi, they don't do many purchases. Once again, when rates go up, you're going to see the number one mortgage company in your country is UWM but we're waiting for that, we're going to continue to work every day right now. We closed the gap quite a bit and quite honestly when we become number 1, it's a real coup to our clients because mortgage brokers are the fastest, easiest, cheapest way to get a mortgage. Whenever one of the mainstream media understands that the best way to get a mortgage is through a broker and that the biggest mortgage company in America, only works with brokers, it will change the dynamic of the industry in a very positive way for consumers in UWM.
Deidre Woollard: Do you think that when interest rates go up though that we will see another refi boom or do you feel like that most of the people that wanted to refi have already refied?
Mat Ishbia: When rates go up, there will be another refi boom when they come back down eventually, but rates got to go up for them to come down. Mortgages are cyclical. When I look at is, let's just play it out, 2022 -2024 rates go from three to three and a half to four. Then at some point in 2025, they go down to three. It will be a refi boom at that point. But in the next couple of years going up, that's where UWM is going to shine and really dominate, and at the same time when rates go down as you saw in 2020, we don't struggle. I'm just saying, other people take advantage of it more than we do because that's not our focus. Our focus is long-term growth not, let's take advantage of all to get into good.
Deidre Woollard: You don't think they'll be getting it a little mini boom, the first-time it goes up consistently over three to three and a quarter?
Mat Ishbia: I think so many people have taken advantage of the 30-year fixed rates in the 2s that I don't know how many will. They will take advantage of cash out because housing values have gone up. There's actually equity in people's houses, they put 20 percent down in the first time or 10 percent down the first time. Now they might have 25 percent equity in the house, so cash out or getting rid of mortgage insurance, there will be a little bit of that to your point. But I don't think it's going to be what we've seen recently, and even if it is a little bit more volume, the margins will be squeezed. Therefore it's not going to be a real big cue to these refi shops.
Deidre Woollard: What impact could higher inflation have on your business?
Mat Ishbia: Well, obviously inflation affects interest rates and how does that impact the market? How does it impact people's ability to buy or what they want to do and how they think about the economy. All things that touch the economy impact our business. My point about our business is that we're a lot less cyclical and a lot less behooved into the great market that we just saw, where everyone else is winning in that rate market. We've seen a lot of our competitors actually in the same quarter lose money and go down and do less business. We're not as susceptible to that, and so whether it's inflation, well-established, there's a lot of different things that can happen. We're not a bullet proof by any needs. However, we think we are better than the other mortgage companies in almost all of these situations.
Deidre Woollard: You mentioned to how important speed is to you earlier, how do you deliver on that as a company, really making that process faster, and what do you think of some of the companies that are trying to build the all-in one platform where you get your mortgage from the same place and it's like an all-in-one system?
Mat Ishbia: Yeah. There's all one systems out there and there's ways to do it. The way you think about mortgages, like when I said earlier, no one wants one, so you've got to make it faster, and easier, and cheaper. The all-in-one system, how people are doing it, we make it faster. The industry average is 47, 48 days, we're at 17, 18 days. Nobody wants to deal with the mortgage and the headaches of a mortgage. They want to get the financing and get into the new house or get the savings for their mortgage, save 80 bucks a month, whatever it may be. But those all-in-one technologies, they're great. We actually built them and give them to our brokers, so brokers have access to it, the digital mortgage app, and they can go through the process, literally, borrowers can do everything digitally with our mortgage broker clients. They don't want to think about it, they can even do the closing virtually if they want, we control every aspect of it, making it a simple, easy process. I think a lot of the things you see Deidre, maybe a lot of people are talking about that they have it when they really don't. How do you know someone has got great technology? There's two things you can look at any mortgage company. One, how long is it taking to close loans? We're at 17, 18 days, no one's faster. Second thing is, what's their cost to originate loans? How expensive it is? You have great technology and you're really doing things faster and easier. You're going to win on those two metrics, and that's really where we've been shining, and that's why we can win in a low-margin, high-margin, low-purchase, high-purchase game. We can do it all.
Deidre Woollard: What are you thinking about remote online notarization. There was a lot of temporary laws in place during the pandemic, some of them are now permanent. Are you thinking that's eventually going to be all across the country, and finally, one rule at least so that it's much easier for people?
Mat Ishbia: It's got to be. I do think so, it's just going to get every state and every county, and everyone wants to get their piece of their rules in place. But the remote online, we call it the virtual closing. We were the first ones to do it. We do it, but it's the promise, it's clunky right now. While it's clunky, every state has their own rules and you can only have notaries in this state and that state, it's just very complex, and you don't want to make it complex. But you got a lot of states, a lot of people, so they need to make a national rule, obviously be a lot better for consumers. I see the movement of the mortgage world moving in that direction. I don't know if it's today, but it's coming soon.
Deidre Woollard: I wanted to ask you about Future You. I think this is a really interesting thing that you're doing. It's a program for people that are aging out of foster care. It's an internship program. Tell me a little bit about that.
Mat Ishbia: We're passionate. We do a lot of great things for people in the community. When we found out a little bit about some things that we're going on with, a lot of people foster care and an aging out, and they are left on an island. How do we help give them skills and help them get to that next part of their life, and so we created this program called Future You. We're excited about it. Making an impact and it's an internship, but then we're hoping to hire them on or help these people be part of the UWM family. A lot of people don't realize that the foster care and that world, there is a lot of improvements we made and I can't solve every problem, but we can give them a job and we can give them an opportunity though people don't want to work hard and see that potential work family outside of that coming their way. We're excited about that. We're going to really push on that and hopefully make an impact in our Metro Detroit Area, and here in Michigan.
Deidre Woollard: Interesting, so is it an educational program or is it internships for people who are already in college? How does it work?
Mat Ishbia: Well, it's actually more of a educational program while they're still not aged out, so they're still 17 years old either in foster care. Then it's getting them a job here at UWM is the goal to give them a job and give them some skill-sets, they understand. A lot of times they don't have skills on financial mindset on how to handle things because they're about to go on their own and they don't have the mom and dad maybe the way that you or other people might have had in the past to really give them that foundation, that family foundation. We're just trying to give them some education, and then we're trying to get them an opportunity to become part of our family, and if that works for them then they can meet people and they can just be part of the community here of our 9,000 person company.
Deidre Woollard: I just love that. Ready for an audience question?
Mat Ishbia: Sure.
Deidre Woollard: [laughs] This question is from BB. There is strength and weakness, where is United Wholesale Mortgage weak, and how can you improve in that area?
Mat Ishbia: Where we focus on, obviously we talk about our strength when rates go up. But our weakness, if you want to think of it in that way, is in the bowl markets or if you're thinking about when rates are going down, we don't go through our portfolio like our competitors do. What we focus on is our relationship with our brokers, and so you could say, hey can we sharpen up or be better on a refi boom, why don't we look as good as other guys? Well, it's part of a strategy, but we basically made the decision that we're not going to solicit the clients of our clients. We stay out of that game, and so that's why other people look really good in a refi boom, and we look very good, not the best, and so it's a strategy. But you could argue that that's a weakness because we're not churning our portfolio, but that's really not the right thing to do in our belief system, not only for our clients but also for consumers, and so we feel good about understanding it. But I do know that that's what people will perceive a weakness, and it's a business strategy decision that we've made.
Deidre Woollard: But there isn't anything that you feel like that there might be something else you need to strengthen and there is a weakness?
Mat Ishbia: Well, the only other thing I could think of that comes to mind that we talk about here is we work with sub-servicers, we partner with it and there is [inaudible 00:25:31] some cost savings we can do by bringing it in-house and handling it ourselves for a million consumers. Right now we have a couple of different vendors we partner with. We do it in a amazing experience, but that's the way. But once again, my focus is client experience and how do we grow the business and sometimes those things aren't. But you can argue that's a weakness if people were to look at our company. I don't see that as a place that I'd focus too much energy on. But I do know that as a weakness that I could focus on to make us probably reduce some costs a little bit and grow the business with our consumers and tied into our brokers.
Deidre Woollard: Fair enough. Wondering what your marketing campaigns are for the future. Obviously we are getting into football season. People start thinking about ad campaigns. How are you thinking about marketing and media going forward?
Mat Ishbia: Well, we think about it a couple of different ways. There's obviously three buckets of people that we market to. One is our loan officers, people that actually send us loans and work with us mortgage brokerage. Two, educating real estate agents on who to work with going to mortgage brokers, and three, on the consumer side. We do a lot of things with findamortgagebroker.com, even trying to educate people to go get a mortgage and whilst you go to that website, you might end up with a broker that doesn't work with UWM, which is perfectly fine, but it's doing the right direction. We did a couple of super bowl commercials last couple of years and educating people on that. We are looking at spending money to educate consumers and figure out how do we just change the dynamic of people. It's the mind set of mortgages, you ask your parents, you think you get up at 20 percent down, you go to your bank, but that's just the wrong way. You can put less money down. You got an independent mortgage broker, you get a better deal. You make an impact on your community, and at the same time, you don't have to worry about the mortgage process. We're changing, we're going to educate and we're doing a lot of things on the marketing side. But once again, there's three buckets. The most important bucket for our growth is still the loan officer bucket helping educate loan officer, helping loan officers succeed in their local markets, so giving them marketing tools to grow out in Lexington in Kentucky or wherever they may be to be successful.
Deidre Woollard: Last question for you from Ms. Melanie. Here in North Carolina, what seems to take the longest to get a mortgage closed is getting the property appraisal back, which is 14 business days. Since bylaw appraisers must be independent of mortgage companies, is United Wholesale Mortgage able to reduce that so that they can close quicker?
Mat Ishbia: Yeah. Industry-wise, not just in North Carolina, it's across the country where there's not enough appraisers out there to do the amount of houses that are being asked for, and really Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have not used the technology at the level that they could to make it so you'd need less appraisal. What's happening is appraisers are charging 6, 7, $800 and it's taking longer than you like. Now appraiser are working extremely hard, they're overwhelmed with business, which is a positive for appraisers, but it just makes a little bit slower process. What we've done at UWM, we've partnered with a lot of appraisal management companies and actually have gotten the appraisal process much faster than what you are seeing. But it's still an industry-wide problem and it's definitely something that hopefully will get better in the next 3-12 months.
Deidre Woollard: Interesting. What are you thinking about the technology for appraisals? Certainly during the pandemic we had virtual appraisals and things like that. Do you feel like that's going to be more of the future?
Mat Ishbia: It's got be. The data is out there. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, they know the value of your house, and so the appraisers basically just go out and validate it. They're doing their appraisal, but if you give them more appraisal its way off anything that doesn't work, it's not what it's worth. They have the data, so why are we not using it? This is a lot of political and a lot of red tape things tied in there. But overtime that will change and we're hopefully and be on the forefront of that. [MUSIC]
Deidre Woollard: I have no doubt. Well, thank you very much for your time Mat, this was fantastic.
Mat Ishbia: No, I appreciate. Thanks for having me on. [MUSIC]