Deidre Woollard: Hello. I'm Deidre Woollard, an editor at Millionacres. Thank you so much for tuning into the Millionacres Podcast. You know that I love interviewing people in the real estate crowdfunding space. I've had the honor to interview a bunch of the major players, and we've got one of them here today, Adam Kaufman is Co-Founder and the COO of ArborCrowd, he's also an authority on commercial real estate and crowdfunding. Like me, I think he believes that crowdfunding is just disrupting the commercial space in a really great way. A little bit about ArborCrowd. It's part of the Arbor family of companies, which includes the Arbor Realty Trust, which is a publicly-traded commercial mortgage Real Estate Investment Trust, and we'll go into what that means a little bit in the podcast. Just a reminder, there is a review of ArborCrowd on the Millionacres website. Well, welcome, Adam.
Adam Kaufman: Thank you. I'm excited to be here today.
Deidre Woollard: Let's get right into it because I noticed that during the pandemic, ArborCrowd stopped bringing deal to the platform I thought that was an interesting move and why was that the right move for you?
Adam Kaufman: At the beginning of the pandemic, there was a lot of uncertainty. The industry really came to a halt pretty quickly and one of the benefits that we have as a company is that we are able to warehouse our deals, meaning that we actually put our capital on the line into each transaction, close on that transaction prior to syndicating it out to the crowd. What that does is it gives us the ability to take the time we need to launch that product on the platform. In the beginning of COVID when there was a lot of uncertainty, the industry came to a screeching halt. We had the ability to put our deals on our balance sheet for all intensive purposes and wait for the best opportunity to launch it to our investors when the dust was settled, then we thought it was a more safe and secure environment to do so. But at the same time, we didn't sit back and pause, we decided to focus our internal efforts on building out our technology. We hired up and staffed up to not only build that technology, but to improve our operations across the board. We weren't sitting on our hands and we weren't resting, we're very active, and we had a cautious and careful outlook toward the market in terms of deals.
Deidre Woollard: I think that's interesting because in the review of ArborCrowd in Millionacres site, we use the word methodical and I think that's a compliment, I believe that that's what the values of ArborCrowd is, you present only one deal at a time. Why is that?
Adam Kaufman: Our belief is putting the product first and like I said earlier, we put our money on the line, we actually close on these transactions with private capital prior to syndicating it out. We do so because we have to believe in the deals and we have an inherent focus on putting the product first, looking out for our investors, not being an expert across the board in every single asset class, across different product types, we're focusing on what we know best and where we think the money is best suited. There's a lot out there in the industry, we see a lot of deals come across our desk, and we cherry-pick the ones that we think are the best for the platform.
Deidre Woollard: When I've talked to other crowd funders, they talk a lot about that, about how many deals come across their desk. I think that's really something that everybody is focusing on is they're seeing a lot of things that maybe aren't right for crowdfunding. What do you see that makes you think, "Okay, this deal isn't right for me?" Is there anything particular that you look for that might be a warning sign or look for that might be an encouraging sign?
Adam Kaufman: Absolutely. I think when crowdfunding first got started, it's still, in my belief, in its infancy stages taking off very aggressively and I do think it's the future. In its more infant stages, I think that what was happening for the crowdfunding platforms is that they were often looked at as easy targets for capital because the people running the platforms didn't necessarily have workout their real estate experience, but actually identified themselves as more closely with technology companies, or as technology companies, as marketplaces, as we are syndicators, not really with real estate experience. You had people who were shopping deals around in the market for long periods of time being denied some of the more traditional sources of capital revert at the last stop to crowdfunding platforms and that was what was happening for a while. That's still happening to a large degree, but I think people are getting more experienced and people are also understanding crowdfunding in general, how it works, it's becoming more of a topic that's discussed around I guess just the table, in general, and boardrooms for people to come together and look at it as a viable source of capital. With that said, I think the quality is growing. We have a lot of relationships in the industry. It's something I know we'll talk about a little bit more as it relates to how we work with Arbor Realty Trust and the synergies that exist there. But because of that, we're able to really cherry-pick the deals that we think are the best and the fundamentals of the deals have to be there, we have to be able to say to ourselves, "Are we willing to put money on the line?" Because that is what we do prior to syndicating it out.
Deidre Woollard: I know that one of the things that you talked about with ArborCrowd is making sure everyone has skin in the game, that's you guys putting capital in. But what does that mean across the entire deal?
Adam Kaufman: Yeah, that's a great question. I think that's often overlooked when people are analyzing deals on different platforms. At the end of the day, you have to look at who is running the deal, who's this sponsor, how much money are they investing in the deal? Yes, we invest in the deal prior to syndicating, but we also have benchmark requirements on a deal-by-deal basis for the amount of equity that the sponsor is putting in and that's really important. It's to know that the interest is aligned, that there is an inherent combined interest for the business plan to succeed, their capital is on the line too. Where you have to really be careful is understanding the fees. If, for example, the acquisition fee is so close to the amount of equity they're putting in the deal, they are essentially getting cashed out right at the start of the deal and their interest doesn't need to be there in such a strong degree, you have to really dive in, ask the questions, and most of all, we made sure that the information is being presented to you.
Deidre Woollard: That's one of the things that we've learned in the Mogul service and one of the things that our investors talk about is that it's confusing in the beginning when your understanding crowdfunding is just understand what the sponsor promote is, what that means, what the waterfall is, there's a lot of terms that may not make sense to people. How do you help your investors understand that?
Adam Kaufman: One of the things that we taught ourselves on is presenting a lot of information and we're able to do that because we close on the transactions, the deals are fully baked, we can present all the information as is, this is not a moving target, things aren't changing, and we don't raise the capital prior to funding the deal, it's the opposite. With that, we are able to put together even 30-page summaries of the actual deals, we're able to put together private placement memorandum on each deal that are 150-250 pages depending on the deal where you have access to a lot of information. Now, with that said, not everybody needs to become an expert in real estate overnight and the key is to ask yourself, is the information being presented to me, if I have a question, can I speak to someone, am I getting real and valid answers, and am I comfortable partnering with this person at the end of the day or this firm? Do I feel comfortable in the overall business and the overall market? If that information or that level of comfort doesn't exist, you should proceed with caution.
Deidre Woollard: I would definitely agree with that. You and I both believe real estate crowdfunding, you said it's in its infancy, I think it's like maybe it's a toddler at this point, it's definitely learned to crawl, it's starting to run. I have this theory that REITs were created in 1960s, it really took REITs about 30 years to take off as an investment. How long do you think it's going to take for real estate crowdfunding to really catch the eye of more people; I think it's still a little bit on the fringes. What do you think?
Adam Kaufman: I agree. I think we haven't even scratched the surface, I think the power of the "Retail investor" is enormous and the whole concept of crowdfunding came about because of technological advances and having accessibility at your fingertips. I think that's only going to grow. Now, it is the wild west out there, there is a lot of regulation that I've seen needs to come into play to really make sure the space operates in the right way. As that happens, different companies and people will adapt and people will ultimately feel more comfortable. People on the other side, the sponsors, need to be assured that it's a secure and actual realistic way of raising capital and I think that's proven correct. But the retail investor exists in a great quantity and we're just scratching the surface. I think if you were to look at how much is being raised through crowdfunding, the year-over-year growth, and what that multiple looks like, it's moving quickly.
Deidre Woollard: One of the things I think that sponsors maybe feel a little bit hesitant about is just the amount of investors in a deal. I think that they're so used to having to please a few stakeholders. Do you find there's a reservation with some sponsors in that idea of suddenly having 50 stakeholders that they now can expect questions from or something like that?
Adam Kaufman: Definitely, I find there is a reservation, but I think it's often misunderstanding. That depends obviously on how the platforms operate but what we do is we, as ArborCrowd actually represent when we are talking to sponsors, we're communicating with the sponsors, we're actually asset managing the projects. It's something that we count in our experience and in our ability is that you're speaking to us. We speak on behalf of the crowd. We deal with all of that communication. People want that not only discounts want that, our investors want that because they feel comfortable and confident that we know the questions to ask. We know how to stay on top of our sponsors and make sure that we're getting the proper information each quarter and regularly when things happen because we know we're doing they're able to feel more comfortable at home. That's really what we do. We focus on the real estate itself. For example, we had a deal that we entered, and in about just under 15 months, the business plan of that deal changed. That was not the deal that we entered into and that's not how we sold it to our investors. We went to the table, we spoke with the sponsor, and we were able to negotiate a favorable outcome across the board for our investors to exit the deal because the business plan had changed on their behalf and that's a really, really big deal for our investors who wouldn't even have known that they had the ability to do that, let alone track the business plan in that way. That's an example of how we are different. It's an example of how we asset manage and how we actually get to the table and are able to really get into weeds.
Deidre Woollard: That's interesting because one of the things we've seen with Mogul, and I think this is a reflection of the deal climate right now is some of our deals that were originally going to be maybe a five-year hold or something like that, especially in multi-family, we're seeing things be sold quickly. We're seeing those timelines shift. Is that what you're seeing too, is it business plans and also timelines shifting, partly due to the pandemic?
Adam Kaufman: I think across-the-board, things are changing. We definitely, for the most part our deals have stayed pretty steady in terms of their business plans and we feel really good about that just because it ensures us that we understood and partnered up in the right way and we're on the same page but that's not at that obviously, it's very different across asset classes and multi. We've been fortunate in that way. Obviously retail hospitality's been affected by the pandemic incredibly different. I hope that people are very nimble and addressing those concerns. But across the board, I think it is a unique position to be in. I think things are changing and you have to have the ability to handle that change, but make the right decisions and that comes down to experience.
Deidre Woollard: Let's talk a little bit about being part of the Arbor group of companies and what that means for ArborCrowd.
Adam Kaufman: First and foremost, we share common leadership. What that really means is that we not only have huge bank of relationships and access to deals, so we don't have the same expenditure in that way of attracting sponsors and quality deals that flows in from so many years of relationships that we've had. One of the things that's very unique about Arbor is they've survived multiple market cycles, but they really are hesitant to take on new clients. A lot of their relationships have existed through those market cycles, so they understand how their sponsors perform. That's something they learned from 2008, really is that understanding people keeping consistent clients is very important. We can tap into that, we can tap into those deals. It's an incredibly powerful network. We also have the experience across the board through those multiple market cycles, our focus has always been multi primarily. I personally believe it's very difficult to be an expert in every asset class and then every product. Therefore, we keep our focus pretty narrow and concentrated but with that said, multi tends to be the safest and most secured asset in the asset class and real estate. It's good across the board, we have a wealth of relationships and a wealth of experience and that's benefited us and our investors tremendously.
Deidre Woollard: Why was it important for the Arbor Group to have real estate crowdfunding platform?
Adam Kaufman: I get asked that all the time. I think for Arbor, it's a unique company and that it's always looking to understand where the market is and where it's going. I identified an area where there was a new source of capital that could help. In general, the need in the marketplace to fill the equity gap. Originally, this is what we set out for to fill the equity gap for sponsors who are looking to take down deals and they couldn't raise three, four, five million dollars additionally from their networks or family and friends or put it up personally and there's a need for that in the market. That's where we came and we knew that this was going to be a growing source of capital as we're seeing right now and the power of the retail investor. It's only natural that we would start the platform.
Deidre Woollard: That makes sense. Let's take a quick break here.
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Deidre Woollard: I am back with Adam Kaufman of ArborCrowd, and we're talking about real estate crowdfunding. Currently, you guys are only for accredited investors. Do you think that that's going to shift over time?
Adam Kaufman: I don't think we will move over time to non-accredited investors. It was very intentional for us to go towards the accredited investors. I think we can all agree that the definition of an accredited investor is incredibly broad and really makes very little sense, and I hope that gets refined over time. But at the end of the day, you have two things that are consistently pushing us to staying towards the creds. One is the cost to acquire a non-accredited is virtually the same as the cost to acquire accredit from an ad digital acquisition standpoint or a customer acquisition standpoint, and you want to focus our energy on a higher check if you're able to. Number 2, is that at the end of the day, if you go asking accredited investor, do they make other investments in real estate? We're pitching our real estates away to diversify, what other investments do they make? You'll get a largely at the banters, they deal with different brokers, they deal with other types of investments, maybe some funds, whatnot. That makes me feel comfortable at the end of the day that they have investment experience and it's not me taking the risk for the first time. I've block them through an investment channel. Where if you go to a non-accredited, you asked that question oftentimes, you'll get an answer like I, maybe I want some Apple's stock or bonds or treasuries back a while ago or I got that as a present when my kid was born, etc. I think that there's more risk there. I am a little cautious to be pitching an investment channel to somebody who is not actively looking. They basically saw an advertisement and quick through and all of a sudden, they put in a thousand bucks. That's really the two things at the end of the day, why people will continue to focus on the accredited investors.
Deidre Woollard: That makes sense. What's the average minimum per deal for ArborCrowd?
Adam Kaufman: Our minimum ask is 25,000, we've gone up to 35. That changes based on the amount of money we're looking to raise or the interest there. At the end of the day, for us, our average has been higher. Our average has been a little over 50k. actually.
Deidre Woollard: So I know what other the things that you've advocated for is more transparency and crowdfunding, you just mentioned advertising. There's a lot of companies just spending a lot of money advertising right now. What is transparency mean to you, and what ways do you think that the industry needs to think about it as it grows up?
Adam Kaufman: Transparency means information. The whole point of crowdfunding is to have access in information at your fingertips without a middleman. To me, you need more information on a deal-by-deal basis, an investment-type basis. That's just lacking a lot of platforms out there. They either don't have the information they're presenting care ships because they're raising the capital, in which case, the investor needs to be able to understand who that crowdfunding platform is, what is their real estate experience, that needs to be marketed to them more heavily, they're raising the money upfront. On the flip side, if they are actually investing in a deal, they need to be able to know and understand what they're investing in. That also comes down to the experience of the platform. How well did they vet this deal? Did they know how to vet in the same way? What happens after I invest? What is our relationship look like? What's communication look like? What am I getting from them? Because their relationship really starts at the investment point, not before that. I think those things really need to further grow in the industry, and that to me, is a hurdle that many are not accomplishing, but we'll hopefully in the future.
Deidre Woollard: Well, you mentioned earlier before the break, we were talking about how many materials you put on your site with the memorandum and things like that. People don't always read that stuff, sad to say. How can they manage that? What should they be looking for when they are seeing all of that paperwork, they're seeing diagrams and plans and talk about floor plate, that it all sounds a little confusing if you haven't dealt with real estate before.
Adam Kaufman: The key to me is if you can't understand something or something seems overwhelming to you, you should be able to get on the phone with somebody and somebody should be able to walk you through it. If you can't get that for yourself from the platform, then there is a problem. Now, that doesn't mean that somebody should go to school for real estate in general on the phone with somebody, it's not a class where you're committing an enormous amount of time. But basic questions, hey, what's the business plan, in a nutshell, depending on what level of depth you want to get into. Whom am I partnering with? What's their experience? What's their track record? What's your track record? What's your experience? Those questions should be able to be answered and it could be a two-hour call, it could be a 20-minute call. Again, there shouldn't be a non-answer on the phone, there should be answers. I think that people should require that for themselves.
Deidre Woollard: I think that's really true. One of the things that we've learned with Mogul and Millionacres too is sponsor communication. In the beginning, when we were launching Mogul, it wasn't something that factored into our Mogul score of evaluating things. It's later becomes something that we really think about because we've had some sponsors that haven't been that communicative with changes and things like that. Is that something you've noticed too, is bonds or communication something that you look for ahead of time?
Adam Kaufman: Absolutely. We informed the sponsors and we do that on behalf of our investors. We communicate with sponsors and go back to our investors. Our sponsors know very well what our requirements are. When we are negotiating upfront, they signed the documents that basically say I will meet these requirements. I'll communicate with you on XYZ basis. Should XYZ change, I will communicate with you and come to you. Those are things that we put in writing. It's really important for us. Because we have such a deep-rooted relationships with a lot of our sponsors, we don't have any problems across the board, we've been very fortunate. That is definitely something we look out for.
Deidre Woollard: Interesting, good to know because I think it really is something that can make a big difference in terms of understanding investments and in terms of investor comfort as well.
Adam Kaufman: Yes. I mean, even look back we just had in New York. We had the hurricane this past week. We have properties that are in pathways to the hurricane and we have had them in the past, we had some today. Are we able to get on the phone with the sponsor and make sure that things are in place? Are they concerned? How are they preparing? After the fact, what was damaged? How are the repairs looking? Anything significant, those types of communications are essential because life happens.
Deidre Woollard: That makes me think about climate change a little bit because you're invested in workforce multi-family, which is so smart in this current environment. We've got an interesting situation where people seem to be moving to places that are, in many cases, most impacted by climate risks. You're balancing a bunch of those factors. How are you and the ArborCrowd team thinking about those two factors and the ways that they can conflict each other?
Adam Kaufman: That's a great question. I have by no means will credit myself with being an expert in climate change. But we absolutely do the analysis, of course, on a deal-by-deal basis. We do the right assessments and the right reports to make sure we're not in those areas, but that will go down to the fundamentals of the deal and do we believe in it. If there's no longevity there because the climate poses a risk, we won't make that investment.
Deidre Woollard: What markets are particularly interesting to you right now?
Adam Kaufman: We have a unique investment thesis and that we look for, again, as a fundamentals of each deal, and when a deal is good, we jump on it. It's relationship-based for us. As they bringing us to deal, how much should we trust them? What does their past track record look like? Right now, we've been seen a lot come from the Sunbelt area in general, but again, it's relationship-based and deal quality-based. That's worked well for us. Other people have different approaches that works well for them. We're fortunate on the relationship side.
Deidre Woollard: Are you factoring in remote work and some of the migration we've seen in the last year, do you feel like that's a temporary trend or is it something you are starting to consider for the future?
Adam Kaufman: I think that remote work is largely temporary, but there will be shifts. You will see certain flexibility. The five-day week might change for certain people in office. But I do think it's largely temporary. But with that said, there are other unique patterns that I think COVID accelerated, like family formation. Millennials who are looking to live in homes maybe can afford a down payment but want to seem amenities are looking at build-to-rent, single-family rentals, build-to-rent space. That's really hot right now. I think that people don't realize how large SFR is across the market in general, but it is a big sector. I think that trend was accelerated and heightened in COVID and I think that it's here to stay.
Deidre Woollard: Yeah, absolutely. We've seen so many funds pop up in the last year for billions of dollars to announce these single-family rentals in a lot of places. It's really an interesting phenomenon. You mentioned build-to-rent, and that's something we're seeing as well. When you're looking at workforce housing, are you looking at ground-up development, opportunistic, value-add, what type of deals appeal to you? Is it just depending on the relationship or is there something that you particularly look for?
Adam Kaufman: When we first started, we focused primarily on value-add, that market got me credit, the returns in that market have gotten incredibly challenging. There is a lot of competition and it's hard to hit where the investor in the crowdfunding space is looking for a net of fees, IRR. In the mid-to-high teens, that's virtually impossible to find right now. We've shifted, we've done construction deal. We're looking at more construction deals and we're looking at more opportunistic stuff in general.
Deidre Woollard: Are you looking at single-family, communities are built to rent or any of that?
Adam Kaufman: We're heavily looking at those and that I think is going to be a lot of the focus of our platform going forward. We have relationships there, there's a lot of opportunity there. We just love the concept and we think it's here to stay.
Deidre Woollard: I would absolutely agree with that. Let's talk about opportunity zones. I feel like everybody wants opportunity zone deals. I think finding them is certainly a challenge. Some of the interest seems to have waned. But then I just got done with the Mogul webinar earlier and a lot of our members were talking about wondering if we had any opportunity zone deals that we were looking at across the different platforms, what are you seeing as far as opportunity zones?
Adam Kaufman: My outlook towards the opportunities zone deals and the program in general when it was first created, it is the same today as it was then. To me, it's all about the fundamentals of the deal. The opportunities zone component is just gravy. If we find a deal that we think has strong fundamentals, you have to remember a lot of the opportunities zone deals are inherently in riskier markets. I think a lot of "the good ones," have been eaten up, have really been done. You also have time working against you here. As the years go on, the tax benefits step-up and basis component get lower. I think at the end of the day, it's gravy. We underwrite the fundamentals at the opportunities zone. If it is an opportunity zone, we will add that on top, but we'll market the deal with its fundamentals and it would be a separate page about the opportunities and we wouldn't go out and market the opportunity zone first.
Deidre Woollard: Are there any other tax credit programs that you're looking at?
Adam Kaufman: Not per se. I think more for us, it's taken to the fundamentals of the deals. If the tax credit stuff exists, great. If there's anything from a historical tax credit that exist, or you're able to get some tax credits because you have some of a Welltower or something like that in your property, that's great. But again, we revert back to the fundamentals. That's how we market it. We'll just say here there is a chance or there's an ability for chance of accomplishing this tax benefit, we'll shoot for it, but we're not going to promise it.
Deidre Woollard: What are you thinking about interest rates and inflation? It seems like we're at the beginning of some movement here. Interest rates have been so low, it seems like they're going to start to tick up slowly. Does that impact your business at all?
Adam Kaufman: It does. It is my belief that interest rates will go up as we're seeing that happen, the pace of which will be determined. I think inflation is assured thing. I think that's why I would encourage people to diversify their portfolios with real estate. Real estate traditionally acts as a hedge against inflation. That's very important to know. I think that it's inevitable. I think there's a lot of money being printed.
Deidre Woollard: What kind of hold times are there on ArborCrowd deals? Are you holding until they're at least up, are you holding after that?
Adam Kaufman: It depends. For the most part, our deals have ranged in whole periods, anywhere from 3-6 years. Obviously, construction deal has a longer hold period. It also depends on the business plan largely. But yeah, I think we look to be in the deal until stabilization, until it's sold really. But if that doesn't happen, we also have the ability for us to talk to sponsors, to negotiate a certain buyout out of achieving a certain IRR, so that we always leave that flexibility in for ourselves.
Deidre Woollard: Another question that we get a lot at Millionacres is about taxes. People are very concerned about dealing with K1s and being able to invest SDIRA capital. What do you tell people about taxes and real estate crowdfunding? What should they be aware of?
Adam Kaufman: First and foremost, I always tell people that they should talk with tax experts. I noticed that you can get into trouble when you start to go down that route. It is complicated and we're not tax experts. But with that said, we do facilitated K1s for our investors in the properties. That's incredibly important and we do accept, self-directed IRAs to come through the platform. Outside of that, we really leave the tax advice up to the tax people.
Deidre Woollard: That's smart. Do you do SDIRA capital on every deal? It doesn't vary by sponsor?
Adam Kaufman: We accepted if they come in and we're not a broker-dealer and we're not registered investment advisor. If they come in, basically, they go to their IRA and they say, "I want to make this investment." Their IRA allows for it. They can come into through the platform that way. But we don't work exclusively with one and we do not broker through one.
Deidre Woollard: That makes sense. Right now, you do one deal at a time. Any plans to change that?
Adam Kaufman: We are changing that as we speak. It was about, for me, building a company in the right pace. I fortunately and privately back, so I don't have to show a rapid pace. I'm trying to build a long-term business based on fundamentals. Doing one the other time was what I thought was the healthy way to not only focus our efforts on finding the best opportunities, but also grow our investors and the investment amounts at the same time. That's changing. We are growing and so is our investor base and so is our expertise and our staff. We will be moving towards doing more than one deal at a time. But I would say with caution because I want to look back in 30 years and look at the business that I've built, not what I built in five years and then sold and moved on.
Deidre Woollard: [laughs] You're a different type of entrepreneur than a lot of people that are looking from one thing to the next thing. You are here to stay with ArborCrowd.
Adam Kaufman: Yes, very much so.
Deidre Woollard: I love that. Is it mostly retail investors that you are working with or is it also institutions?
Adam Kaufman: We're only exclusively working with retail investors. We have investors ranging from retirees to people who actually work in real estate, which was ironically one of the things that fascinated me the most was when I started this business, I never realized how many real estate people would invest in our platform because they don't have the opportunity to invest with the principles of their firm. They liked the way that we sourced deals and looked at deals. They liked how we approach things and ultimately the deals that we found and they made the decision to invest with us. I had no idea that would be the reality of what started to happen. It is a part of our investor base and we're very proud of it.
Deidre Woollard: I like that. I think that speaks to the idea of real estate crowdfunding in general is that it does crack open commercial real estate as so many people see those deals out there and it's like there is a way to get in now.
Adam Kaufman: Yeah. Definitely. Accessibility is huge and I can't say it enough. If people have the ability to make the investment online and have access to the information, all the power to them and I hope that just keeps happening to a larger degree.
Deidre Woollard: What advice do you have for someone who may be accredited? They've looked around, they have a stock portfolio. What should they be thinking of before they make their first deal? Should they be planning to do multiple deals at the same time?
Adam Kaufman: I would always caution to not bite off more than you can chew. It really depends on your own experience and your own personal level of comfort and also how much capital you're looking to allocate. I think diversification in real estate in general is incredibly important, so I strongly encourage it. With crowdfunding, you have a unique ability to really hand select some of the opportunities, and that's what doesn't exist in the real estate space. You have access and you have selection. But that comes with caution, do your homework, done your research. Try to speak to representatives during the webinars, access to information. Again, you don't have to become the ultimate expert in real estate, but you should feel comfortable knowing that your questions can be answered whatever level they are. I strongly encourage it.
Deidre Woollard: What do you think about some of the trends that we're seeing right now that are capturing media and investor attention. We've got NFTs out there. More talk about tokenization of real estate and putting real estate on the block chain. I feel like I've been having that conversation for years. It hasn't really come of anything. What are you thinking? You see a lot of these types of structures coming in. What's your take?
Adam Kaufman: I know they're happening and I read about them at here and there, but they are on the periphery to me too. I'm a bread and butter kind of person. I like to focus on what we know and what we do best. I think the industry undoubtedly will move there. When it does, I will probably be more familiar at that point in time, but it's not my focus right now. I love the tangibility of real estate and I like to keep the tangible aspect of it all the way around. That's our focus, that's my experience.
Deidre Woollard: I love how cautious you are. Last question for you. Where would you like to see ArborCrowd in five years? I know you've got the 30-year plan, what is the five and 10-year plan look like?
Adam Kaufman: I think we're going to heavily explore the single-family rental market and the build-to-rent space. I think that it is a tremendous focus of ours to partner up with the right people which we're doing and become foremost experts and leaders in that space, which we're also doing as we speak. I think that's part of our plan and potentially to open up to a couple more product types outside of that in ways that we're exploring and hopefully we will launch soon.
Deidre Woollard: Does that mean other sectors perhaps?
Adam Kaufman: Maybe other areas of the capital stack, but not across sectors.
Deidre Woollard: Interesting. Well, that is a great place to end things. Thank you so much for your time. Reminder, listeners, you can always learn more at arborcrowd.com. You can also read the review on our site, as I mentioned at the top of the podcast, you can always email us at email@example.com to share your thoughts. Stay well and stay invested.
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