Deidre Woollard: Hello. I'm Deidre Woollard, an editor at Millionacres, and thank you so much for tuning in to the Millionacres Podcast. Real estate investing often appeals to people who are making a lot of money and looking to build a diversified portfolio. Problem is, how do you find time to invest in real estate when you have a full-time career that's also highly demanding? Dr. Mas Oishi, the co-founder and chairman of MarketSpace Capital and author of Prescribing Real Estate has the answer. He directs major capital transactions. He manages the firm's investment committee. He's also earned his MD degree in 1996, and received his PhD in molecular and cellular neuroscience. He's been practicing in Texas since 2003 and is board-certified specializing in spinal disorders. Welcome, Mas.
Mas Oishi: Thank you, Deidre. Good to be here.
Deidre Woollard: You got your start early in real estate through your family. Tell us a little bit about that.
Mas Oishi: Well, it happened completely without my volunteering anything at all. I turned 15 and that made me the oldest member of my family who spoke native English. So my parents who had migrated from Japan turned over their real estate portfolio to me and said, "Well, you make sure the rents get collected and the taxes get paid and the insurance is up to date." That's how my involvement with real estate began, really more as a trial by fire.
Deidre Woollard: So you didn't really have a choice then. [laughs]
Mas Oishi: No, I was pretty much forced into it and it was one of the best decisions I never made.
Deidre Woollard: [laughs] I love that. What types of properties did your family invest in?
Mas Oishi: They started out with a couple of single-family homes in a little town in New Jersey called Fort Lee. That little town is now quite the suburb of New York City, and so it instilled in me a healthy respect for the power of investing in real estate.
Deidre Woollard: Your parents made some good moves.
Mas Oishi: Well, I think they were lucky, but lucky investors like to think they were smart, so I think it's perhaps a little bit of both.
Deidre Woollard: Obviously, you're a doctor, you're helping other doctors understand real estate. What advice do you have for someone maybe who is early in their career, getting financially established, they know they're going to earn a lot in the future but they're not earning a lot now. How can they get prepared before they have to start making those decisions?
Mas Oishi: That's a situation that a lot of doctors face coming out of medical school and out of training. The temptation is always there to start living a much nicer lifestyle and to start living beyond your means. I think that's something that a lot of doctors think they worked hard for and that they deserve, and to some extent, that's probably true. But I think the basic rules of good financial health still apply. You should probably look towards paying down debt as one of the first things you would prioritize before starting to live an extravagant lifestyle. In terms of investments, I would say, yes, it is important to start investing early because of the power of compounding returns. Somebody who starts investing in their 20s is going to be much better off than somebody who started in their 40s or 50s by the time they reach retirement age.
Deidre Woollard: That's a really good point, but a lot of doctors also are coming out and starting their career with a lot of student debt. Do you recommend that they start investing at the same time they're trying to pay off that debt, or pay off the debt first before they start thinking about investing?
Mas Oishi: That's a good question. I think in terms of debt, obviously, not all debt is created equal. If you owe money to your parents, that's something you can ask for a little forbearance on, whereas if you owe money to a financial institution and are racking up lots of interest charges, that might be something you want to prioritize in terms of paying down. But from a strictly investment standpoint, I would say it's okay to start small. We all have to start somewhere. A few hundred dollars here and there invested into a mutual fund is actually not a bad way to start, that's how most people start investing. If you don't have the opportunity to make big gains right off the bat, my message would be try not to be discouraged about it because that's how we all begin in this journey towards creating wealth.
Deidre Woollard: I would agree with that. That's one of the reasons we like real estate investment trusts so much. One of the things that comes up in your book, Prescribing Real Estate, is the role of intuition and instinct, and knowing if a deal feels right. I think that's a really important point. It makes me think about doctors having to combine their book knowledge with instinct and experience, and being in that moment in order to diagnose. Do you feel there are some transferable skill set here between medicine and real estate?
Mas Oishi: I absolutely think there is quite a bit of overlap. Doctors often get a bad rap for being bad business people because they're so focused on what they do that sometimes they don't see the forest for the trees. A lot of older doctors, the best investments they ever made were really just the practice or the building that they bought and made into their office. It was an indirect way of buying real estate and they ended up making money off of that. Not a whole lot of business acumen goes into that kind of a decision. There is that aspect of being a doctor. But I think in terms of the ability to look at many different aspects of an investment and to read up and get educated, get smart about properties, that's something that most doctors and well educated individuals, it should be right up their alley in terms of gathering information and then processing all that and deciding what's important and what's not. In terms of stocks and bonds, obviously, the people who are on Wall Street doing those kinds of trades every day for a living have the advantage over guys like me who are basically spending most of our time doing other things. I don't pretend to be able to compete with those kinds of professionals in that kind of an arena. But if there is a property that I walk by all the time in my neighborhood, chances are I'm going to know a lot more about that property than some guy sitting in an office in Wall Street. Now, the roles are a bit reversed. I'm probably a better expert on that than the professionals are.
Deidre Woollard: Well, you brought up a question that I wanted to ask you which is, do you think that doctors that are in private practice should own their own office buildings?
Mas Oishi: That's a good question. In the past, it was almost granted that the person who went out into practice and started his own medical practice would naturally want his own office and everything following from there. More recently, the trend has been towards younger doctors not wanting to hang out the shingle and going in it alone but rather joining a hospital system or a multi-specialty type of group. I'm not saying there aren't any opportunities for investment with those kinds of groups, but it's just not the typical development of a practice that a lot of older doctors are used to. I think the short answer is yes. If you foresee yourself having your own practice, having your own office at some point in your career, it probably makes sense to go ahead and take the plunge and invest in office space, because medical office space is still doing quite well as compared to other white collar office space properties.
Deidre Woollard: Let's dive a little bit into that, because I know that office is a weird space to be investing in right now, but life sciences turned out to be one of the great little bright spots during the pandemic. What are you thinking about medical real estate in general?
Mas Oishi: I think doctors and the medical practices, the higher doctors are generally very high cash flow-type of businesses. A medical practice is also a business and that's something that often gets overlooked by a lot of doctors. But it's a situation I think where doctors can afford to have a nice office and avoid things like just paying rent, and actually have a fair amount of resale value in that there's always going to be a need for physicians and that they're always going to need a place to practice. I don't think telemedicine has turned out to be all that awesome in light of the kind of patient interactions I've seen during the pandemic.
Deidre Woollard: I'm hearing a lot about what they call medtail, combining medicine and retail, putting medical offices in malls and things like that. Is that also something that you're watching as a trend?
Mas Oishi: We've seen this for quite some time beginning with the doc-in-the-box type of practices that cropped up during the 1990s where you'd literally have a doctor in a mall or a supermarket somewhere. [laughs] There's nothing wrong with that, but I don't think that is the mainstream of where younger doctors want to be or the type of practice that they'd like to have.
Deidre Woollard: Let's get back to your book because I think it can apply to other high-wealth individuals. One of the things I'm really interested in is what they call the great wealth transfer, that as baby boomers are leaving us, their estates are transferring. Is it different to think about investing if you get a sudden influx of money versus earning it over time and how should you think about that event?
Mas Oishi: I think there are two ways of looking at it. One way is to say, well, money is money, and if you have a strategy for investment already in place, if you've been doing this for a long time, then you probably would be better prepared to deal with a sudden influx of cash. It's not a bad problem to have. Whereas if you're new to the game, if you really haven't had much experience with investments or with managing assets or properties, then you probably should enlist some help and get some solid advice before making any big moves. One of the things that stuck with me are the stories I heard from an insurance salesman I used to know in New Jersey. He told me that one of the first things that widows do after their husbands die and they get a life insurance payout is they go out and buy a big car. It's reassuring to them that they have the money and the finances to continue living their lifestyle, even though from a strictly financial point of view, it's a rather foolish thing to do. We're not always all that rational when it comes to money, and when it comes to money that, I wouldn't want to say it hasn't been earned at all, but it hasn't been earned in the way in which we would expect, then it becomes a lot more dicey in terms of how we invest responsibly.
Deidre Woollard: How did you begin? Obviously, you grew up with the idea of real estate, but when did that start to be something that you considered?
Mas Oishi: I really didn't have a whole lot of money to invest until I finished medical school and went on to go through training. Most of my early investments were through mutual funds and investment vehicles that were relatively easy to access because the barrier to entry was so low. One of the criticisms that I've seen of real estate as an investment is that people think you need a lot of money to get started with a real estate investment, and to some extent, that's true. We don't have the same sort of investment opportunities that you have in terms of stocks and bonds and other securities in terms of convenience, in terms of a lower barrier to entry. REITS are fine, but they're like the mutual funds of the real estate investment world. There's nothing wrong with mutual funds. I have mutual funds in my portfolio, but from day to day and week to week, I have no idea where my money is. You can read the quarterly prospectus, but that's already information that's three months out of date most likely. What we have been striving for at MarketSpace Capital is a different paradigm in which investors can invest in individual properties just like you can buy an individual stock in a company that you really like or that you have a good idea of what they do and that's promising to you. I think the two keys to doing that, number 1, are transparency and liquidity. If we can get those two issues settled, and I think technology is going to allow us to do that, then I think we'll see a very, very big change in the way real estate is bought and sold.
Deidre Woollard: That brings up an interesting question about diversification, because you can obviously diversify your portfolio in and outside of real estate. As you mentioned, REITS aren't going to have that massive uptake in most years compared to tech stocks. What do you think about diversifying within the real estate space?
Mas Oishi: We don't just buy one type of property at MarketSpace Capital. We are constantly looking at all the different sectors that are out there, not just multifamily or industrial, which right now we're focused on primarily, but we also look at medical office space, warehouses, and other properties. There are some sectors that have fallen out of favor like white collar office space buildings, even though there are areas where you can pick up a real bargain sometimes. We don't just issue a blanket statement and say, "Well we only like this kind of property." We're always evaluating each opportunity on its own merits.
Deidre Woollard: Let's talk for a second about office real estate. I've interviewed a lot of people. I've heard a lot of different opinions. I'd love to hear your thoughts on remote work, hybrid work, and all of the different trends that we're seeing right now.
Mas Oishi: Even before the whole COVID things started, there was more of a trend towards e-commerce, and also perhaps more of a trend towards getting meetings and conferences done by video link rather than going in person. That trend has obviously accelerated. A lot of the big-box retailers have continued to see some difficult times because more and more business is being done over the Internet. I think the recent lessening of the coronavirus incidents has helped the financial health of the country, but a lot of workers are still very much anxious about returning to the workplace and a lot of companies are also anxious about reopening their doors. Perhaps this arrangement where a lot of workers continue to work from home, and we continue to have meetings and interviews by video link is something that's most likely going to continue.
Deidre Woollard: So you're seeing this as a permanent shift verses a temporary situation?
Mas Oishi: Yes. I think these video link conferences are probably here to stay. Obviously, there are some things that get lost when you're not actually face to face and talking to somebody, and that's a shame, but I think for the sake of sheer convenience, this is difficult to beat. [laughs] No matter if you're having to fly to another country or just drive to the next town, it's hard to beat the efficiency of being able to talk and discuss things on this kind of link. So I think it's here to stay for a good deal of transactions and conferences to come. The trend towards e-commerce, I really don't see abating anytime soon. If anything, more and more business will be conducted that way.
Deidre Woollard: But you mentioned earlier, you don't think telemedicine is going to have that same effect.
Mas Oishi: Telemedicine is a little different, because in order to do a full history and physical on a patient, it's something you have to really lay hands on the patient and really look the patient in the eye and get a sense of what's bothering your patient and what the real issue is, and that's difficult to do in this kind of setting. I won't say it's impossible. There are probably some things where, okay, I cut my finger, what do I do? That's something [laughs] you could probably manage over a video link. But I think if there is just a routine follow-up type of situation, that might be something that is amenable to this sort of examination or this sort of communication process.
Deidre Woollard: Let's talk a little bit about due diligence. You talked a lot about it in your book and I think it's really important. You mentioned doing a title search relatively early on before you buy a property. Why is that?
Mas Oishi: A title search is just one of the things that we focus on whenever we see a property that looks interesting to us. We're very much data driven in our approach towards investment. We have an econometric model that uses close to 30 different metrics in terms of evaluating a property. Looking at the title and actually going out and speaking to the owner is actually something that we encourage, not just for investments but whatever you're interested in buying a property. It's not a great idea to leave everything up to a broker. Certainly, they have their role to play in terms of closing out deals and negotiating, but you'd be surprised how much information you can get for free when you talk to a property owner and just say, I'm interested. I can't count the number of times I've been surprised by how much information we've gotten from just that sort of interaction.
Deidre Woollard: I thought that was interesting in your book that you said that you should get to know the owner of a building, because usually we're taught that, especially when you're considering negotiations, you want to keep your cards close to your chest and not really indicate interest. You've got a different take on that.
Mas Oishi: Yeah, I do. I think when it comes down to the actual negotiation, you'll know when you're negotiating because the deadline will be upon you and the pressure will be on and it's really unmistakable to rush to get towards the closing of a property. I'm talking more about the initial stages where you're just out there looking at properties and seeing whatever value there is to see in a property and what your vision is for what it could be after development. At that stage, it's really not such a conflict of interest really to have a discussion with other brokers or even with those who are also interested in acquiring the property. They can be your rivals. They can be your competitors. A free exchange of ideas is always something that we welcome. Obviously, there comes a stage where you have to really put your boots on and get tough, but that's not the entire process when it comes to evaluating a property.
Deidre Woollard: Are you mostly looking for those value add deals where you can buy something, improve it, and then raise rents?
Mas Oishi: I think value add deals are probably less intense in terms of the amount of raw capital and labor that has to be put in to the deal, mostly because they're usually properties that are already yielding some return. The returns may not be great, but at least you have something to work with. Whereas if you buy raw land and you're developing that, you're really starting from a place where there's no revenue, and most likely, you're going to continue paying things like interest and property tax without any income to balance that. You can find yourself in a pretty deep financial hole if you start from raw land. It's one of the more speculative investments and not something I would recommend for a beginner.
Deidre Woollard: Definitely not. At MarketSpace Capital, are you going out and looking for deals in particular neighborhoods? Are you getting a lot of inbound? What is that deal flow looking like for you?
Mas Oishi: Well, we're fortunate enough to have a couple of people on our staff who used to be brokers in the area. They use their contacts, they use their knowledge and experience in terms of finding properties. That's certainly one big source of how we identify which properties look good to us. But we also work with other real estate companies, private equity type of companies, and they approach us all the time asking us if we have any interest in doing a joint venture. Sometimes, deals get brought to us like that as well. We're definitely keeping an open mind in terms of which properties or which locations look good to us. Of course, we're going to go wherever the opportunity is. It just so happens that a lot of the properties that we have worked on so far are in Texas, because we are a Houston based company.
Deidre Woollard: Let's talk a little bit about Texas, because even before the pandemic, we were seeing more and more people move from California to Texas. That obviously amplified during the pandemic. We saw a lot of big companies that are moving to Austin but also to Houston. Are you concerned with Houston because it's such an energy economy city?
Mas Oishi: Houston has become quite diversified compared to what it was in the past. I know back in the '80s, they went through a bit of a bust because of the drop in oil prices. There were some tough times during that era. I remember that time very well. I was still very young. I was told that Houston was a horrible place to go to. [laughs] I think things have diversified quite a bit in terms of local economy. Healthcare is probably one of the strongest parts of the Houston economy now. Energy will always be a strong part of the local economy, but it's not the all-or-nothing type of deal that it used to be.
Deidre Woollard: Are you doing deals in other large Texas cities like Dallas and Austin?
Mas Oishi: Yes. We're looking at a property in Austin right now as we speak, actually just south of the state capitol building. I can't give you an exact location because some of this is proprietary. There are properties in the Dallas, Fort Worth area and also up towards Denton that we are currently under contract with. We also have properties in places like San Antonio but also out of state in Las Vegas. Also, I believe there's one in Kansas as well. We don't want to intentionally restrict ourselves geographically. It just so happens that we have more connections in the area. That's the reason why we skew more towards properties in the Texas area.
Deidre Woollard: Are you seeing more competition from out-of-state investors because there is more focus on Texas right now?
Mas Oishi: We actually welcome that. We welcome investors from California. California actually has a lot of land. It's just that so much of it is restricted in terms of its use that you end up with condos costing three quarters to a million dollars for a one bedroom type of deal in some of these towns. That's way overpriced compared to where we are in Texas. I think you get a lot more house for the money in our state. So yes, we welcome investors and those who would like to purchase real estate in our fine state.
Deidre Woollard: [laughs] I know that that's one of the things that people moving from California has said, that Texas is definitely a more business-friendly environment. Are you seeing right now a move toward single-family rentals and away from multifamily? That's something that's cropped up during the pandemic. Do you see that as a long-term trend?
Mas Oishi: That's very interesting. We've actually seen high demand in both single-family homes and also in multifamily apartment or condo type properties. It's probably a function of more people moving towards this part of the country, the shifting demographics of it all. I think at some point, there is going to be an equilibrium reached where supply will match demand. But as far as things like cap rates go, if you want to use that as a rough indicator of where the supply-demand balance is, we're continuing to see cap rates compressed for both single-family homes and also for multifamily. So I think there is a bit more to go before supply catches up with demand in both sectors.
Deidre Woollard: Is the current run on housing prices, both with rentals and home prices, concerning to you at all?
Mas Oishi: It is concerning. Obviously, nobody wants to have a big bubble that eventually bursts and results in lots of investors losing their shirts. But I think as long as it is a function of something that is healthy, like improving demographics, more people moving into the area, then I think we can take some comfort in that and that it's really more of a healthy growth in the cities of Texas rather than people coming in from other countries and speculatively buying things up. I think there is that aspect of how organic is this demand.
Deidre Woollard: You mentioned people coming in from other countries, which is interesting because there's been a lot less of that during the pandemic, pre-pandemic to some extent with China pulling back and having less investment in the US. Do you feel like that's given the market a chance to reset a little bit, and are you seeing more foreign investment come back?
Mas Oishi: Yes. I think since the 1980s, when Mitsubishi Real Estate bought Rockefeller Plaza, there's been no shortage of foreign investors overpaying for US real estate. I tell foreign investors all the time, yes, America is for sale, but America is not cheap. You really need to drive a hard bargain just like negotiating for any other kind of deal. I think New York went through an astronomical increase in real estate after the bust of the 1980s, and that I do believe was fueled mostly by foreign investors. I think there probably has been a bit of a dip in that investment activity, but in places like Houston where we have a city that is probably the most international city in America, well over a hundred nationalities are represented here, the potential for foreigners to invest in our city is quite alluring. We've already seen a lot of interest from South America and also from the Middle East. The players may change; at one point, it was the Japanese, at another point, it was the Russians, and then the Chinese. But I think the important thing is that we maintain some balance between supply and demand so we can avoid boom and bust type of cycles.
Deidre Woollard: Definitely. You're absolutely right. It's always changing as far as who's got the money and is most interested in spending. But let's go back a little bit to that idea of due diligence, because the things that you recommend in your book can be expensive. You're really very, very detailed. What do you tell potential investors who may say, I don't want to spend all that money just to know if I'm not going to invest in something?
Mas Oishi: I think at our company, we call these pursuit costs, and you're right. In some cases, pursuit costs can be quite expensive. It's not something that we expect individual investors just starting out to completely replicate. I tell the individual investors who want to get into the business to do their own legwork and start with what's familiar to them. That saves them a lot of time. It saves them a lot of doubt and anguish. You can hire a professional to give you advice of course, but if you are familiar with the property, most likely you already know more about it than somebody that you pay a consultancy fee to find out for you. There is that aspect of the real estate investment game. If you have information that other people don't have, then by all means, use it and capitalize on it. There is no insider trading in the real estate business.
Deidre Woollard: That is very true. Another thing that you mentioned I think is really interesting is about the importance of hiring experts. In your book, you also mentioned getting to know them on a personal level. Why is that important?
Mas Oishi: Are we talking about just the investors that I've had connections with?
Deidre Woollard: I think that too, but also the professionals that you work with, the individuals that are helping you with a real estate investment.
Mas Oishi: I think obviously, we all want to make money, and we all want to have a very constructive and fruitful business relationship. So it really does pay to get to know people and understand what it is that they really are looking for out of a business relationship. There are some people that approach us who just want to get our business, and they'll say anything and do anything just to get their foot in the door. After a while, you get to recognize who those people are. Reputation is important, but also sometimes, you just have to put your trust in somebody's hands and see how it turns out. We've made our share of mistakes. We just try not to make the same mistakes twice. Once we know who we can trust and who we can't, that becomes a much easier process to navigate.
Deidre Woollard: I have to ask, can you share an example of a mistake and what you've learned?
Mas Oishi: I tell people this all the time. The biggest real estate failure in terms of investment that I made was actually buying a home for myself, which seems odd to a lot of people because that's the one real estate deal that most people have made money on, buying their own house. I did not follow my own investment advice. I took a job in a small town in Texas years ago and I really didn't have much time to prepare. I was supposed to start working within a few months. When I got to that town, I was overwhelmed with needing to find a place to live not just for myself but for my family. There were some concerns that normally I would not factor in to the equation of what to buy and at what price to buy. It's often said that you need to approach these deals the same way you would in terms of evaluating a business. Every property can be considered a business, but it's difficult to do when you're thinking about your own home, your own house, because that's not something you're expecting to generate income. That's not something you actually view as something that is capable of generating revenue. It's a place where you live, so there is always other considerations. That's probably why I ended up losing thousands of dollars on that property.
Deidre Woollard: It happens, and residential real estate is so emotional sometimes.
Mas Oishi: Yes.
Deidre Woollard: Why did you decide to create MarketSpace Capital? You already had a career in medicine. Why bring this into the mix as well?
Mas Oishi: Well, MarketSpace Capital, I think we really had a long-term goal of not just making money or starting a private equity type of firm. But really in terms of a long-term vision, we wanted to change the way in which real estate is bought and sold. There is this perception, and it's still true for most of the country, that the big players in real estate have this country club, so to speak, where the rest of us are not even invited to the table. I wanted to change that. I wanted to actually bring a whole new universe of investors to the real estate market, and the way in which we want to bring that change about is really playing out even as we speak. A lot of blockchain technology and tokenization technology has been brought forward. We're actually discussing plans to tokenize or do an initial token offering, ITO instead of IPO, for some of our properties going forward. It's an exciting thing for us. This is one of those, I don't want to use a cliche, but one of those possibly game-changing events that could be very exciting, and that's what motivates a lot of our staff at MarketSpace.
Deidre Woollard: Let's talk about tokenization because I find that fascinating. I agree that it's got the potential. The first tokenized deal happened I think three or four years ago. There's been a lot of talk about blockchain and tokenization, but the revolution that's been promised hasn't happened yet. What are you working on? Do you really think that this is going to become more of the norm?
Mas Oishi: Yeah. I think the two keys in order to open up the real estate market are going to be lowering the barrier to entry. Right now, even with syndication of our property deals, we're still looking at at least $25,000 to $50,000 as an initial investment. A lot of our high net worth investors can easily clear that hurdle, but that's not the case for the general public. One of our goals is to lower that barrier to entry. The other is of course liquidity in the secondary markets. We're all familiar with deals in which LOPs have been established and people have ownership in the property. But what if they want to get out? What if they want to sell whatever stake they have in the property? A lot of people are finding that the secondary market is not necessarily there. They feel stuck and they feel trapped in the deal. It's great when the deals are going gangbusters and you're making lots of money, but if for whatever reason you're suddenly in need of some cash, it's hard to get out of these kinds of arrangements. We've looked towards blockchain and token technology as a way of establishing ownership, and that ownership can also be shared or split or sold off. I think that in theory provides a very suitable vehicle for the goals that we're trying to accomplish. The question again as you said is, is there going to be a market for it? Is the market something we're going to have to make? Is there some way in which we can introduce this kind of investment to people and grow it organically? I don't know the answer to that yet. We're working on different strategies to see if we can bring that about. But it is still very much an interesting and exciting time for those of us who want to change the real estate [inaudible 00:45:12]
Deidre Woollard: Yeah, I totally agree. I really believe that we're still such early days on real estate crowdfunding in general. We've got Regulation A and Regulation D, but tokenization hasn't really been something that the SEC has addressed yet in detail, partly because it's still very new, it's still a handful of deals. Do you think that the SEC is going to have to address it, that it's going to be something that's going to be encoded into some of the laws?
Mas Oishi: This is always the way it happens; the technology comes first and the laws come later, or a judge has to rule on a certain case, and case law as it so happens may be what becomes the ruling legislation, so to speak. Yes, it always happens in this way. Right now, it really is like the wild wild west. You can certainly design your own platform for these kinds of trades going forward. We've certainly envisioned what it might look like. An obvious analogy would be the stock exchange or where the digitization of securities transactions has already occurred, and public offerings like ITOs can closely mirror what an IPO entails for securities. I think the parallels are there. We could certainly just use that analogy and not reinvent the wheel, not come up with a whole different way of transacting shares in real estate. That would be probably the most efficient way to get it done. But it still has to get done by somebody and that's where we are right now.
Deidre Woollard: Absolutely. As we wrap up, just like to get your advice for someone who wants to get started in real estate but maybe isn't sure how to begin.
Mas Oishi: Okay. From somebody who really had no choice but to get started in real estate, I'll say [laughs] it's not so important how you start but that you start and that you start early. You can start small, that's not a problem. If you feel that REITs are your speed, there's nothing wrong with that. But I think it's a lot more fun as an investor when you have transparency into what you're investing in and you can see where your money is going to and what it's doing. I would try not to miss out on that aspect of investment. [MUSIC]
Deidre Woollard: That's a perfect place to end things. Mas, thank you so much for your time. Reminder to listeners, you can learn more at marketspace.capital. Remember, you can always email us at email@example.com to share your thoughts. Stay well and stay invested.