Ryan Williams: It has been a challenging time on many, many fronts. I've really focused on the good that I think can come out of this period of time and making this more than just a moment, but a true movement. My view is that it's challenging but as a society, we've navigated challenging times before. I feel like I've seen the American people generally step-up and same thing on a global level as well when there is a kind of hurt and suffering and the like. But what's important is that we acknowledge and address that there are deep systemic and equities and issues that have been brewing for a long time but this wasn't just something that sporadically and spontaneously happened. This was an event that unsealed and unlocked a lot of the pain and frustration that only gets exacerbated in times of challenge like we're going through with COVID. I've felt that I had an obligation to, first, personalize a lot of the pain and frustration that people are seeing. As an African-American man, a founder and CEO of a Real estate investment platform, I'm not surprised by a lot of the pain and the hurt that there is now being surface for more people in the country. I think it's important to acknowledge that. We can't keep hitting snooze on these issues. This should be an opportunity we awaken, we get up we work together as a country [MUSIC] to promote greater economic equity and equality of opportunity.
Deidre Woollard: You are listening to the Millionacres Podcast. Our mission at Millionacres is to educate and empower investors to make great decisions and achieve real estate investing success. We provide regular content and perspective for everyone from those just starting out to season pros with decades of experience. At Millionacres, we work everyday to help demystify real estate investing and build real wealth. Hello, I'm Deidre Woollard an editor at Millionacres. Thank you so much for tuning into the Millionacres Podcast. Today, in this special two-part episode, we're going to talk about crowdfunding with one of the leaders in this space, Ryan Williams, founder and CEO of Cadre. Ryan will share with us his entrepreneurship and investing journey, and will also talk about diversity in real estate investing, minority-owned banking, and more. A little bit about Ryan. Ryan founded the technology-enabled investment platform Cadre in 2014. Since its inception, Cadre has closed more than three billion in real estate transactions across 16 markets and delivered more than 18 percent annualized returns to investors, including four complete property sales, resulting in the return of more than $130 million of capital to Cadre investors to date. As CEO of Cadre, Ryan has raised more than $130 million of corporate capital backed by investors that includes Goldman Sachs, Andreessen Horowitz, Ford Foundation and others. Welcome, Ryan. How are you today?
Ryan Williams: I'm great. Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to our discussion.
Deidre Woollard: Me too. I'm really excited to dive both into your personal story as well as everything that you've learned as an investor and then your founder journey in growing Cadre. Let's start by talking about how it all began for you. You grew up in Louisiana, right?
Ryan Williams: That's right, Baton Rouge.
Deidre Woollard: What was that like? How did you start thinking about business at a young age?
Ryan Williams: I was born in Baton Rouge in a city in the deep south that is not known for entrepreneurship or frankly real estate investments. I didn't have a ton of role models in the business world growing up but I always had an orientation towards seeing challenges and issues as opportunities. I never imagine working in corporate America because that reality wasn't really existing to me. But that entrepreneurial spirit is ultimately what allowed me to prosper in the face of a lot of adversity and I don't think could really be held back. When I saw problems or pain points, I chose to say, "What if I could create a solution to address these?" That started with the first business I ever launched when I was just a teenager, which was a customized headband and wristband business. Basically, I grew up playing sports. Couldn't afford Nike or Adidas or Jordan headbands and wristbands. I asked what if there was a cheaper product, but one that's still had good quality? The answer was that there was if I could go to wholesalers directly and buy the products and then sell them to others who had the same pain point. The long story short is I ended up doing that. I ended up also figuring out how to customize them. I built that business into a pretty large sports apparel business, built a website where people could actually buy the products and ended up selling that business my freshman year in college. That was really the start for me. When I got to Harvard, it was a foreign environment. I was the first one in my family to go to any school like that. But it was an amazing experience because it was really, I always say, like a playground of resources and opportunities. I could apply at same entrepreneurial framework and question, what if the problems I encountered to a much wider set of issues and build solutions better. I also had this amazing network of peers and others who had experience in places that I didn't. When I was in college, I always spent more time outside to classroom than inside. Started a couple of different organizations because I loved bringing people together to solve the same problems that I encountered. But what really piqued my interest and set me on the path to Cadre, was a trip I took to Atlanta with my college roommate in 2008. Hard of subprime credit crisis, I went to Southwest Atlanta where my roommate and one of my best friend was from between semesters. As we were driving up the street I noticed, there were a lot of houses in the area that were foreclose or boarded up. He, like myself, who's African-American and lived in a predominantly African-American community. I was surprised because I've been there a year before and the street was immaculate. I asked them what was going on and what kind of issues are here because it looks like there's real distress and people are either moving out or have already moved out. He said, "Look, I don't know exactly what's going on, but I've heard a lot of these homes are being acquired by outsiders and people have been underwater and no longer can afford to pay their mortgages.'' That same entrepreneurial spirit rose and I asked them and said, "What if we could try to buy some of these homes? What if we could also allow folks who otherwise would be foreclosed on, kicked out of their homes to stay in their homes, maintain the fabric of these communities, and do well financially by investing, but also do good. That question led us to develop a business where we ultimately began buying many of these foreclosed homes. We would rent them out to folks in the community. They would have an option to buy them back after they built their credit up. We were able to really tap into that network I mentioned at Harvard where a lot of wealthy kids there who were themselves or their families looking for interesting investment opportunities. We ended up buying our first home in 2008, single-family home in Southwest Atlanta. Bought it for about 65,000 ended up renting it to a single mom with a few kids who is thereafter able to buy it back from us. We made about three times our money. That really set me on the path to eventually acquiring hundreds of residential units because when you return money back to investors and deliver on what you say, you generally get rewarded. That was my first experience in real estate. It was an amazing experience because what I saw was that there is a tremendous opportunity to allow people to own their futures. If you can help empower people to be homeowners. Real estate is one of the most important asset classes to own, to build long-term wealth. But there're clear disparities. That idea of using investing as a way to promote greater economic equity is always stuck with me. Even after I graduated from college and went to work at Goldman Sachs, I knew that I wanted to get back into real estate. My path to get back into real estate went through the Blackstone Real Estate Private Equity Group where I worked after spending some time at Goldman, and saw some amazing things that we did there. I saw how we were able to scale our business. I saw the rigor with which we applied to all of our underwriting. But what I also saw is that there is a lot of wealth being created for relatively small concentrated group of people. Then that question again arose, what if I could let more people own the same kind of real estate that we were buying at Blackstone, with more efficiency, more transparency, and more liquidity? That was really the minute and the moment where Cadre's concept was conceived. I founded Cadre to democratize access to institutional real estate, the very real estate that was making sovereign wealth funds, and foundations, and endowments, billions of dollars. I wanted to build a platform that would lower the barriers to entry, that would open up opportunities for people, individuals, to invest in institutional real estate. Our mission is just that, to provide more individuals the opportunity to invest in a traditionally inaccessible, opaque, liquid asset class. As you referenced, we've made some amazing strides over the past five plus years. We'll know we're successful when people across the world can own their futures by having access to real estate investments, when we make alternatives like real estate less alternative. I think we're well on our way to doing just that.
Deidre Woollard: Interesting. Thank you. I find it at interesting distinction between commercial and residential. A lot of people get their start in residential and then they don't make that movement to the next level in commercial, which can be more lucrative for people. How did you decide that that was the right place for Cadre to go?
Ryan Williams: Yeah. That's a great question. I started buying homes. Growing up, I never owned a home. The first home I ever owned was more of an investment versus anything else. What I saw when I was an owner of dozens of homes and units, was that you could generate really compelling cash flow by owning a diverse group of homes. What you also could do is benefit from depreciation, which is one of the key tax opportunities by owning real estate directly. But when I got to Blackstone, what I saw was that residential real estate was great. We had a single-family business at Blackstone. But if you really wanted to diversify, if you really wanted to have a much wider range of commercial tenants paying you rent across different geographies, across different asset classes, commercial real estate was a much better place for you to invest. You think about owning four, 500 unit multi-family portfolio, which we considered commercial because of the scale, that gives you way more ways to generate cash flow, because you have so many more units, and you have a greater leverage than owning one or two homes, or even a few hundred homes, because you can, again, use a management team to generate greater operating leverage. You can use a management team to ensure that there's economies of scale, and ultimately, grow your cash flow faster. I saw that commercial real estate offered more diversification if you invest it alongside the right management teams. Just like in the stock market, you could outperform, and that in many ways there's even more institutional demand and liquidity in the commercial real estate space than residential. The other interesting dynamic with commercial real estate is, it's less of an emotional industry. What do I mean by that? When you're buying a home, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so you might pay up because you really want your kids to be in a certain school district or because you just love the layout and the design. You might not pay up because you don't like the school districts. It's a bit more subjective in terms of valuation. Commercial real estate, it's a lot more scientific. It's about your underwriting, it's about rent growth in the market, it's about cash flow that your tenants are generating. Because of that, I found that it's easier to have predictable cash flows when you're investing in commercial real estate. It's a lot less subjective. It's a lot less what's hot at the current moment. I think what's also been very clear to me was, most individuals have no real way to get access directly to commercial real estate, you can invest in a REIT, but REIT is effectively a stock, it's correlated more so to the equity markets, you don't have the same tax benefits in terms of direct ownership and depreciation as owning real estate properties outright. One of the benefits that I found commercial real estate is diversification. You could try to invest in a big fund like a Blackstone fund, but the reality there is minimums are really high, there's a lot of fees, there's this element of a double promote, a two and 20 at the fund level, and then at the operator level, there's very limited liquidity, if any. What we're looking to do at Cadre is take the best commercial real estate investments that are highly experienced team with more than 40 billion of transaction experience has delivered and package it in a very transparent, low fee, and liquid way, and let more investors have stable access to cash flow, income producing real estate that our team has vetted, and have that diversification that I think now more than ever is important given the volatility in the market, and in many ways, the low growth and low yield environment.
Deidre Woollard: Absolutely. You mentioned a really important thing which is access. Certainly, it's much easier to find residential properties than it is to find really good commercial properties. As you started building Cadre, what was your secret for finding those projects and forgetting those developers to want to take part in crowdfunding, especially, when even a few years ago, it was much riskier or at least perceived to be much riskier for developers?
Ryan Williams: Yeah. Well, I always said from the outset that I believed in the mission of crowdfunding, of opening up access to more people. But I thought of what we were doing as more institutional in nature. I wanted us to be a platform that was branded as more institutional, because I found that in some places crowdfunding has gotten negative connotations associated with adverse selection. Why is the property going into crowdfunding side? Does that mean that it's not good enough for others? I wanted to completely refute that view. The way I thought I could do that is by bringing an institutional investing approach to commercial real estate, investing for the masses. What does that mean? Well, first, it means I'd build an expert team. I always say, I'm the most inexperienced member of our investment committee. We had folks like Mike Fascitelli who chairs our investment committee. Mike was formerly CEO of Vornado, one of the largest REITs in the world. He was head of Goldman Sachs' Real Estate Group, and he's been involved since I founded Cadre. We have a guy named Allen Smith, who's the president of Cadre, was formerly CEO and President of Four Seasons, and then before that, CEO of Prudential's Real Estate business. Our head of acquisitions, Dan Rosenblum was head of acquisitions at Jim Realty, Chicago-based real estate private equity firm. Then we have a number of other really talented asset managers as well. I wanted to bring together that institutional investing team who had a ton of experience and picking the right opportunities, and we also invest alongside. I said, number 1, it's about team. The number 2 thing was, I wanted to be able to execute and give every operator or developer that we worked with, 100 percent certainty that if we said we liked the deal, we'd be able to fund it ourselves and we'd be able to raise the capital. I have found with some crowdfunding sites that the reason adverse selection exists is because they can't tell an operator, a developer if they'd bring them a new deal, that they were 100 percent guarantee that the deal would be funded by them in their network of customers and investors. I never wanted that to be the case with Cadre. Early on we secured a $250 million backstop from a very large family office, that gave us the ability to take a deal down, and then ultimately syndicate it to hundreds, if not thousands, of individual investors. What that did was, it showed operators and developers that when we said we were there for a deal, we were there for a deal, and we could execute by 100 percent certainty, the same way an institutional platform would execute. Then the final thing is I wanted Cadre to be set up in a way where whether it was acquisitions, or asset management, or selling the property, we were there with our investors throughout the entire process. We were a true fiduciary. We've built an asset management team. We've built a national platform so that once we buy the property, we can make sure it's executed while we can make sure our investors are receiving distributions, dividend, and yield, the same way an institutional investor would oversee their investments for their investors. We've really wanted to brand ourselves as the gold standard for online platforms, offering access to institutional commercial real estate, but do it in a more transparent, efficient, and in liquid way, and more accessible way. I think that's paid dividends because we've been able to attract pretty significant institutional investors like Goldman Sachs, who committed about 250 million a few years ago. We've had a corporate pensions invest with us, and most recently, we began opening our platform up to even more individuals, because that is the mission. I want to democratize access to real estate, but we want to do it in a methodical way. We think that the work we put in early on to ensure that we were a true fiduciary, that we were vetting every single deal. Pay dividends, when we try to expand and open up to the masses. The final thing I'll say is we've been able to also do is bring together very strong, experienced real estate investment professionals, but also, build a data-driven model. One of the benefits of technology is if you apply the right models and you use information, you can actually drive outperformance. What we've done is we've brought really strong investment professionals, alongside data scientists and engineers, and we've built our own models to identify markets and asset classes that we think will have the best growth. We actually recently announced the development of the Cadre 15, which is a data-driven macro model where we forecasted markets that we think will have the most growth, the best affordability, the best population, trends, and the like, and it's thousands of variables that we've aggregated. What they've done or what the model has done rather, is it's given our investment team more confidence when we're going out and we we're saying, we believe Phoenix, Arizona, for instance, will be a market that's going to drive our performance because we've seen a lot of millennial inflow. We've seen a lot of population growth. It's still relatively affordable to very business friendly market. At the end of the day, if you can augment that traditional process with data, you can move faster. In this market, the best deals move quickly. I'd say, it's the institutional foundation you created. But it's also complementing that with new insights, new data-driven ways to identify opportunities. So far, it's proven out that we've been able to identify deals that really do outperform and drive some Alpha, and that's what we'll be judged on is can we continue to deliver the kind of performance that we have? Can we continue to deliver and build trust with investors around the world?
Deidre Woollard: Well, the idea of building a foundation is really important, I think in any level of entrepreneurship, one of the things that we caution people about in real estate investing in rushing in too quickly. It seems like Cadre has really built that solid foundation. Of course, this year is the test of everything, I have called this year, the best stress test for businesses ever created because this is the year that everybody learns what they're made of and what their companies are made up. It's obviously changed a lot for a lot of different companies and a lot of different places. How has it changed Cadre?
Ryan Williams: Yeah. You're right. This has definitely been an unprecedented year in a lot of ways. I think that just to take you back to 2019, we had just finished our strongest year to-date. We had closed a couple of billion of real estate investments. We had generated a couple of more realizations and returned millions of dollars of capital to our investors. As we look to 2020, we're really excited about building on the momentum and launching new investment products, we're very excited about new investment opportunities that we were working on. The first month or so of the year, actually, we were securing new deals and continuing to deliver great returns to our investors, and COVID hit. When COVID hit, it pretty much froze the real estate market. There was a lot of uncertainty. We thought at that point, we're going to be pencils down for the time being. We're going to be 100 percent focused on defense. Let's go across our more than three billion of real estate nationally and check every single asset to ensure it's performing well, to ensure there is no issues with liquidity, to ensure we're being responsive to our tenants and to anything they might need. I think what we learned was the prudent approach that we took up front, the reality that we only approve between two and three percent of all the investments that we review and that we see was paying off. We found that across our portfolio, there is actually very strong performance and resilience. Our multi-family portfolio, which is the vast majority of what we own. We like multi-family because it's defensive, it generates strong cash flow, and people will always need somewhere to live, was occupied in the high '90s, which is basically in line with where we were pre-COVID. We found that our office portfolio, which is the second biggest asset class we owned, had collections in the 90s percentile as well. Even the hotels that we owned were performing well too. One of the hotels was on leverage, so that helped us out, we didn't have debt. The other hotel was one in Nashville in a market that actually opened up a bit sooner, but more important, what became a destination for folks who couldn't travel outside the country, but still wanted to get away for weekends at a time. Once we start to see that our portfolio was performing well, we started saying, "Okay. Let's begin moving from our back foot to our front feet." We started realizing that in these periods of dislocation uncertainty, for companies that have built strong, defensive portfolios that are well capitalized, they can actually present the opportunities of a lifetime. As a result of that recognition, as a result of the strong performance, and the fact that we spend a few months solely focused on our existing portfolio, having discussions with our investors, we're now in a position where we can begin investing again. We've actually started in investing in new opportunities. Opportunities in asset classes that we think will be unique in this environment. Life sciences is one asset class that there's been a ton of tailwinds given all of the investment in the space, and office is one of the unique ways for folks to get exposure to the growth that's going to happen in the market. We focus on industrial investments given everything happening in the e-commerce world and the need for digitized supply chains and the like. We felt that was a space that would grow a lot. Multi-family, which is really our bread and butter, has performed incredibly well. We're actually seeing cap rate, compression in multi-family, which wasn't expected. We're seeing valuations higher. But I think the reason is because people will always need somewhere to live. It's a relatively defensive asset class, it's a lot more stable today than office, hotel, retail. Again, we're fortunate that we're even in a position where we can be investing and moving towards offense versus defense. Our goal, and my goal at Cadre is to allow more people to participate in the recovery, to participate in upside in a way that frankly weren't able to do in '08, '09. I think we're uniquely equipped to do that. It's a long-winded way of saying, I feel like we are actually in a relative and absolute basis in a stronger position than we were pre-COVID. It's because of some tough but prudent decisions that we made to focus solely on our existing organization and portfolio. I'm most excited about the opportunity to reach, hopefully, millions more individuals and give them an opportunity to invest in portfolios that will provide a great alternative to this high volatility, low yield, low-growth environment, and that's what the right real estate can do.
Deidre Woollard: Yes, exactly. That's one of the reasons that we love real estate, it's one of the reasons that the Motley Fool that got into real estate and created Millionacres was to give people this option. I want to talk about how this year has affected you personally because I know that it's been a year that we've really had to look at at ourselves and the way the world is. Obviously, after what happened to George Floyd, I think all of us were really considering what justice is in this world. I know that you've attended some of the protests and you've been involved in that. I was wondering if you could share just a little bit of what your journey has been over the last few months.
Ryan Williams: Yeah. Thank you for asking, and as you mentioned, it has been a challenging time on many, many fronts. I've really focused on the good that I think can come out of this period of time and making this more than just a moment, but a true movement. My view is that it's challenging, but as a society, we've navigated challenging times before. I feel like I've seen the American people generally step up, and same thing on a global level as well when there is a hurt and suffering and the like. But what's important is that we acknowledge and address that there are deep, systemic inequities and issues that have been brewing for a long time, that this wasn't just something that sporadically and spontaneously happened. This was an event that unsealed and unlocked a lot of the pain and frustration that only gets exacerbated in times of challenge like we're going through with COVID. I felt that I had an obligation to personalize a lot of the pain and frustration that people are seeing. As an African-American man, a founder and CEO of a real estate investment platform, I'm not surprised by a lot of the pain and the hurt that there is now being surfaced for more people in the country and I think it's important to acknowledge that. We can't keep hitting snooze on these issues. This should be an opportunity we awaken, we get up, we work together as a country to promote greater economic equity and equality of opportunity. I actually put out an OPED recently about my story of getting into real estate. What highlighted was I got an opportunity when others wouldn't from a black-owned bank, a minority depository institution called Citizens Trust Bank. They gave me a loan to buy one of those portfolios I mentioned earlier in Atlanta, hundreds of units, when others wouldn't and that set me on the path to where I am today. That, in many ways, is one of the most important milestones that allowed me to build a business that now owns more than three billion of real estate and that's not the journey for everybody. But I do think it's representative of what possibilities there are when we as a society focus on investing and supporting the institutions, the organizations, and each other that serve communities that have been marginalized for so long. It's why at Cadre, I've been so focused on doing more to promote greater economic opportunity and diversity, and equity, and inclusion. At Cadre, what we've done is focus on using our platform, our products, and our services to deliver greater access. That's the mission in many ways, but access as well to underserved groups and communities. What that's meant is we've made public statements and action plans about depositing some of our cash with black-owned banks and minority depository institutions given their role in helping multiply access to capital in their communities. It's also meant that we've been explicit about committing to working with more diverse operators who are uniquely equipped at the properties that we invest into be real stewards of their community. It's also meant that at Cadre we've been focused on making sure we continue to build the most inclusive and diverse organization. Almost half of our management team are women and a people with color, and I look at that as a competitive advantage. It means that we're going to be able to find and see opportunities where others might not. It means we're going to be in a position where we have decision-makers that are as diverse as the world we live in and can respond to the opportunities of our time. Finally, I've said let's also create alliances and build coalitions because this is a moment in time that can become a movement, but only if there is widespread support and everyone understands that when we build more equitable world it elevates everybody. So I recently was a member and helped put together a Fintech Equity Coalition, more than 40 Fintech companies who have made pledges to use their platforms, organizations, and resources to build a more equitable financial services and financial services technology world. So I'm very encouraged by the action that we're seeing. I'm very encouraged by the fact that people are willing to have these kinds of conversations because that hasn't always been the case. For me, it's really about making sure we've invested in institutions like minority depository institutions and Black-owned banks. We invest in internship programs to help increase the pipelines of talent. We think boldly, creatively, and think about what each of us can do. Sometimes it's just having a conversation about understanding why some of these issues arise. Sometimes it's about taking action going into nonprofits, but I think the important thing is that there is a sustained commitment. I think sustained commitment will come, now that there is a reckoning and a recognition that these issues aren't going away. Inequality is something that's been increasing on a lot of different dimensions. In order for us to start narrowing that gap, all we have to do as a society and as individuals, to see each other as just that one society, one race of people, one human race. I think if we can change our perspective and seek to understand and open our hearts and minds, it will translate into action. It will translate into more equity, and it will translate into more prosperity. That's something that I'm personally passionate about, something I'm very focused on because it's aligned with our company mission. I think at the end of the day, that's what everybody wants, is the opportunity to have a fulfilling life, to have access to equal opportunity, and to be the best versions of themselves. So that's what I hope this period of time translates into and it's not going to happen overnight but these kinds of conversations are the first step and moving towards the American Dream, so to speak.
Deidre Woollard: I would really agree with that. I know I've read some of your writing in Fortune and CNBC, and you talked about economic justice which is an important part of all of this. One thing that I've seen, just looking at research is it's harder for black people to get mortgages. It's harder to get access to capital. As you mentioned, the Fair Housing Act has been around for over 50 years, but the Black homeownership rate hasn't really moved forward that much. What else do you think is necessary for people to move the needle? Is it more education at a younger level, what do you think could really change things?
Ryan Williams: Yeah. No, it's a great question. There have been some really good reports and media. I know The Journal put out an article about the trade and the dearth of Black-owned banks there, and frankly, the dearth of capital and credit. I believe that what we're seeing today is that there is a need for more partnerships, public and private partnerships, to capitalize institutions and organizations that focus on providing capital to communities of color and communities that have been undeserved for so long. As you alluded to, Black-owned, community-focused banks offer very much needed capital and access to not just their communities for homeownership, but small businesses as well. There are countless people who are overlooked by the national banks. Community banks are supposed to be sort of that backstop, but so many of them are under-capitalized and there is very few as well. So my view has been, I believe one, there can be a lot of policy that can do good here. There can be a lot of work from the government that can be helpful in creating, financing, and funding many of these banks and organizations. There also can be private efforts and initiatives as well. There is no reason why private institutions can't rethink their own lending policies and practices. I know it's a little bit less profitable, but if many banks reduce the size of their minimum threshold for lending, they'd actually be in a position where they could lend to more communities that have been underserved for a long, long time. I also think that what there need to be is, is more focus and more medium success stories that do arise. I use my own example and experience being backed by a Black-owned bank, and I'm just public with it when I've been traditionally a little bit less open about issues of race, because I thought it was important data point to show that what can be done when these institutions and organizations are supported and funded. So I think there is this recurring almost sustained commitment from the government which I think could be relatively straightforward and simple to implement. There have been some programs that have worked, some that haven't, but if there's something that's sustained, then it's not a two-year or three-year investment. Then if you compliment that with innovation in the private sector from banks and institutions, and should rethink their own lending practices and maybe some implicit biases they have. Then I think that you can create and elevate an entirely new generation of minority communities and minority businesses that are really one step away from being able to scale and take that next step forward.
Deidre Woollard: [MUSIC] I love that. Thank you. This is a great place for us to take a break. In episode 2, we will dive into the current state of the real estate market and find out what Ryan is most looking forward to next year in terms of real estate trajectory. Thank you for tuning into The Millionacres Podcast. I hope you liked today's show. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing through your favorite podcast provider. If you have any questions, please feel free to drop us a line at email@example.com. Stay well and stay invested. People on this program may have an interest in the deals, offerings, or services they discuss, a Millionacres or The Motley Fool may have a formal recommendation for or against. Always consult to certified tax professional before acting on tax advice, and do not buy or sell assets based solely on what you hear.